Ultimate Thor origin theory.

UltimateE said:
OK, Seldes Katne, don't hold out on us...:D
Guys, the entire "essay" (a.k.a. "rambling thought process on paper") is about six typed pages in MS Word. I'm not sure the boards have enough space. :eek:

But I will attempt to polish it up and get at least some of it on here. If nothing else, people might get a good laugh out of it. Or ask to have me committed....

Caduceus said:
I think you might be giving me just a little too much credit on my knowledge of norse mythology, sunshine.
"Sunshine"? I thought we weren't mentioning that again.... :wink:
 
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Seldes Katne said:
"Sunshine"? I thought we weren't mentioning that again.... :wink:

I haven't referred to almost anyone by their actual name for a very long time. Nicknames have got to come from somewhere.
 
All right, here it is; just remember, you asked for it. :)

Before I get started, let me point out that when all is said and done, Thor is going to end up being whatever Mark Millar decides he is, and I personally have no more insight into Millar's mind than anyone else does, so all this speculation may turn out to be so much hot air. (In fact, I suspect that if Mark Millar ever read this, he'd laugh himself sick at how naive I am.) But hey, everyone needs a hobby....

Part of the problem with figuring out Thor's true nature and origin is that I'm not certain how many of the deviations from the myths are because Mark Millar is drawing from the Marvel 616 version of Thor, how many are just a form of creative license that Millar and Hitch are using for the character, and how many are actual clues that could be used to solve the mystery. It's like trying to draw conclusions about the character based on the Ultimates Vol. 1 DVD – does the fact that Thor sounds like he's from the northeastern United States mean that he's really an American (or was raised in America), or does it mean that the people who did the voice casting for the DVD made a mistake? Or perhaps they know something the rest of us don't? :?

This also raises the question of the origins and authenticity of the Norse myths and how literally we should take them when speculating on this topic. Are they literal? Allegorical? Completely fictional? :? :?


With all that in mind, we have several possibilities here:

1) Thor is exactly what he claims to be – a being with extraordinary powers who at one time served as an object of worship for various people on Earth. His appearance on Earth might be explained by one of the following:
A) He is a being of pure spirit or intellect, complete with the memories and abilities of a mythical being, born into the body of a human, the way human souls are supposed to be born into a body.
B) He is a "joined" entity, a being sharing the body of and with a human. Either this or option A could result in the human body being endowed with superhuman abilities.
C) He is some sort of advanced life form that evolved on Earth, possibly before humanity appeared.​
2) Thor is actually a delusional human. (Okay, so where does he get the ability to mess with the weather, teleport, etc.? This raises the question of "Do these abilities rest in Thor, or in Mjolnir?".)
3) Thor's powers are the result of mutation. (Despite his claims to the contrary. I mean, has he been tested for the X-gene?)
4) He is an extraterrestrial of some sort, either from another dimension or planet, who has somehow appeared on Earth and been raised as human. (This suggests that his natural form is so close to human that he can pass undetected among us.)
A) He comes from an alternative Earth, where one or more groups of "humans" have developed god-like abilities.
B) He has been altered in form to pass for human, and is actually from another place completely unlike Earth.
C) He is a being who can take the form of a human, without actually being human.​
5) Thor is something completely different from all of the above (whatever that might be). My imagination is somewhat limited but, for example, he may be a manifestation of some power of planet Earth itself. In the "World Tour" story arc of UXM, Xavier is speculating on why so many mutations are being seen at the end of the 20th century and whether evolution or some other power is preparing humanity for something coming in the future. The appearance of a supposed Norse god or the equivalent may be another aspect of this puzzle. (This theory is kind of "out there", but since we're just speculating...).​

This pretty much concludes the organized part of the presentation. What follows are just some general thoughts on the subject, in no particular order.

Thor being exactly what he claims: First of all, how do we define "god"? And does it matter whether Thor is thought of as a "god", or can he just be a super-powered being and never mind the religious aspects of all this? (A "god" is usually thought to have the right to dictate morality to people or set behavioral standards, or to have the ability to intercede on the behalf of his/her worshippers.) Apparently various people in the Ultimate Universe do believe in Thor's divinity. I'm guessing the people around him in Norway are among his followers (or at least are curiosity-seekers) – the depictions of various people in the background when Thor apparently causes it to rain show people dancing with their arms up, suggesting that the rain is considered a blessing, or a proof of divine power, or something along those lines. Thor likely has a following in the United States, and other countries as well.

Thor comments in Issue 6 that he's been sent by his father to "purify the Earth". In Issue 4, he tells Fury that he's here to save the world. If Odin really is Thor's father (at least in the spiritual sense, if not the physical), what's the real agenda? In The Ultimates, there's an implication that Odin is like the Christian version of a fatherly God – concerned about the fate of humanity and willing to send his son to basically save us from ourselves. In what I've read of the Norse myths, however, Odin doesn't sound like that at all – he's a god of warfare and strife, he instigates problems with the giants, and the rest of the pantheon is afraid of him. He's basically got his own agenda, and humans are just a kind of cannon fodder for him, so to speak. In one of the myths, for example, he takes a necklace belonging to the goddess Freyja, and will only return it if she promises to go stir up war and dissention between human kingdoms. He doesn't seem any too picky about which kingdoms she chooses, either.

To my mind, there could be a very large difference between "saving the world" and "purifying the Earth". The term "purifying" suggests that whatever is flawed or unworthy will be removed. (Interesting that fire and water are two methods of purifying many things, and Thor appears to have control over both in some form — lightning as a form of fire, and water in the form of rain.) This raises the possibility that humanity is to be removed from the picture altogether, as even the best of humanity still has flaws and faults. (I think it would be interesting if Odin's plan was to get rid of humanity, and the son just doesn't realize that yet....)

It's merely a guess on my part that whatever happens, it won't be that extreme; Thor appears to be one of the most benevolent and altruistic characters in the Marvel Universe – he may have made tons of money from book deals and lecture tours, but you'd never know it from the way he dresses and behaves. In the Ultimate Six story arc, he comes late to the situation because he was doing something in Bosnia. We're shown a picture of him apparently pushing part of a building into place; presumably he's helping with rebuilding or repairing something that's been damaged. He organizes peaceful (he claims) demonstrations, writes self-help books, and refuses payment for his involvement with the Ultimates. (A Norse god writing a self-help book. The mind boggles. :D )

In Norse mythology, Thor is supposedly the son of Odin and a giantess named Jord, which translates into English as "Earth". (Hmmm.... So, are the myths allegorical? Are the Norse "gods" actually vast, non-human intelligences who do battle on a cosmic level? Are the "giants" in the stories actually planets or solar systems?)

Thor in The Ultimates does seem to have at least the trappings of the mythological being. Obviously, there's the hammer Mjolnir. Also, during both the fight with the Hulk and the battle with the Chituri fleet, we see him wearing a belt. In the myths, the character does indeed own a belt that increases his strength (can't remember if it doubles or triples his strength). He also wears a pair of iron gloves that allow him to swing Mjolnir without injuring his hands. Thor in The Ultimates seems to have both these items, although I'm not sure the gloves look like iron.

However, in a sterling example of the "clue or red herring?" problem with using the myths as clues to Ultimate Thor's true nature, nowhere in the myths I've read is there a suggestion that either Thor or Mjolnir have the ability to teleport or fly, and yet we see Thor do both in the Homeland Security story arc. In the myths, Thor travels either on foot or in a chariot drawn by a pair of goats. (Frankly, if I had the ability to fly or teleport, you can bet I wouldn't be wasting my time with mundane forms of transportation. Being able to appear/disappear in a flash of lightning would also be one heck of a way to impress your followers, or more importantly, your skeptics!)

One of the key questions for me that hasn't been answered is "When exactly did he acquire the hammer?". Is Mjolnir itself the source of Thor's abilities? What the heck is this thing and where did it come from?

Enough speculation on whether Thor is actually a deity or not. Let me comment briefly (yes, I know, too late) on some of the possibilities inherent of his not being entirely human. If "Thor" is actually a being of pure energy who/that contains the memories and abilities of the being from Norse mythology, he might have been born human, with the being inhabiting an actual, biologically human body. The spirit or soul would have entered at conception or some other point in the developmental process up to, what, maybe the age of one or two? (How far back in our childhoods can most of us remember, anyway? Does everyone's soul "move into" the body after it's born? At conception? I don't know, and I'd really rather leave that particular discussion to someone else, thanks muchly.)

One of the other ideas I mentioned is that Thor might be something that resembles a human closely enough to pass for one, but is actually something else. Possibly Thor was brought to Earth (or this dimension, or whatever) as a baby and left with a human family (or in an orphanage, or whatever), and was subsequently raised without any knowledge of who he really is. I'm basing this partly on the comment he makes at the dinner that "I've known who I was since I was twelve", which suggests that the knowledge had always been there, but was buried in the recesses of his mind somewhere. Having the knowledge and realization of purpose emerge might also explain some of the supposed mental problems the character has had.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Thor apparently didn't "know" who he was until the age of twelve. At what age do most people start pondering the questions of "Who am I, why am I here, what's my place in the cosmos"? I don't know any five-year-olds who do that — most of them are busy being kids. It seems to happen a lot around or during the teen-age years, and sometimes for years thereafter. (Still a question I think about from time to time.)

I'm guessing this man had an Earthly life before making the pronouncement that he was a Norse god. For one thing, Black Widow sees him as a delusional schizophrenic, so he obviously has a medical history somewhere. Bruce Banner, quoting the S.H.I.E.L.D. dossier, labels him as a crazy ex-nurse. I don't think you're allowed to practice medicine without some sort of licensing or training, so presumably Thor has attended some sort of medical school or had some other sort of formal education. One generally needs a high school education or the equivalent to be admitted to those kinds of programs. (In some respects, Thor in The Ultimates almost seems too intelligent to be the real thing. Thor in the myths tends to be a decent enough fellow, but by no means the brightest crayon in the Asgardian box....)

One of the things that struck me about the character is the messianic nature of what we've seen of his background. (And I will freely admit that I may be reading waaaay too much into this.) Thor's comment about knowing who he was since he was 12 reminds me of the Biblical story of the early life of Jesus. At one point, Jesus' parents are returning home from a distant city when they realize he's missing, so they turn back to look for him. They finally find him in the temple, speaking to the scribes and priests. His explanation? "I'm going about my Father's business." (His father being God, in this instance.) Jesus was 12 at the time.

The second bit that jumped out at me was Banner's comment that Thor had his nervous breakdown just before his 30th birthday. Jesus' public life began around the age of 30 as well, starting with the wedding feast in Cana, where he turned water into wine. Both Thor and Jesus claim to have been sent to Earth by their respective fathers.

The rather darker side of the messiah comparison is that Jesus was crucified by the age of 33 or 34, so I can't help but wonder if that's where this is going as well.... If you want to consider Thor as a real Norse god, then the possibility exists of him making "the ultimate sacrifice" on behalf of humanity, either for political reasons or in the midst of some major battle. (According to the myths, the Norse gods were mortal—they needed the apples of the goddess Idun to retain their youth, and most of them died during the Ragnarok, the great battle at the end of the mythology. Thor himself was killed by Jormungand, the Great World Serpent, who was actually the son of Loki. Loki was also the father of the wolf Fenrir, and the monster Hel. Just to keep things interesting, Loki was the mother of Sleipnir, the fastest horse ever born. Don't ask—the biology doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense—it's religion/mythology. Some things you just take take on faith.)

If you consider Thor to be a delusional human, the "crucifixion" might be more along the lines of the loss of the "Thor" personality fragment, leaving merely the human he had been before the mental breakdown. I've seen speculation around the 'Net that Thor is also Loki, that a lot of what's happening in Issue 1 of Ultimates 2 is happening in Thor's head, and that that's the real danger in this story arc.

Whatever the explanation, Thor appears to be something other than human, or is at least superhuman; for one thing, during the fight with the Hulk, Thor apparently takes quite a punch to the jaw (enough to send him sailing through the air a good distance and crash-land hard enough to take out a car, if I recall correctly), and yet he gets up and comes running back to confront Captain America about putting civilians at risk. And in the picture we see of him the next day, he isn't even sporting any bruises! One can argue whether the superhuman aspects of the character come from something internal, or the influence of Mjolnir (which also raises the question of whether or not the superhuman abilities can be passed to whoever happens to own the hammer, which I believe is part of the 616 mythos of this character).

I personally don't have a problem with Thor turning out to be exactly what he claims. I commented on one of the stories on the Fanfic board that spirituality in any form seems to be completely absent in the Ultimates titles, except for Kitty Pryde's mother remarking that she's glad Xavier isn't teaching creationism, and Rogue's comments about angels and "devils". As someone who has a fairly active spiritual life, I find this absence difficult to understand. One could argue, of course, that Thor is only a deity because various people choose to worship him, and not because he's inherently superior on a moral level. However, I do like seeing someone or something that cannot be explained scientifically. It makes the universe a more interesting place.



Being a librarian, of course, I expect people interested in a topic to want to read more about it. (This may mean I'm as delusional as the guy I'm talking about, but I keep hoping....) One of the best anthologies of Norse myths I've seen is Kevin Crossley-Holland's The Norse Myths. He's collected 32 myths whole or in part and offers about a zillion background notes. (In his version of the Ragnarok, he mentions that Thor's sons Modi and Magni inherit Thor's hammer after his death. I knew I had seen that somewhere....) His versions of the myths are not for children, however.

The idea of Thor (and gods of the Greco-Roman pantheon) as joined entities is explored in Fred Saberhagens's series Books of the Gods, in which the memories, personalities, and abilities of the Greek and Norse gods are actually contained in a mask; putting the mask on endows the human with the god's characteristics. The fifth book, Gods of Fire and Thunder, deals with the Norse gods.

There's an online encyclopedia of Norse mythology here
 
Wow - awesome analysis. :shock:

The rather darker side of the messiah comparison is that Jesus was crucified by the age of 33 or 34, so I can't help but wonder if that's where this is going as well

Huh....
 
My theory about Thor is that the Thor we know in the comic is indeed a human that had a nervous breakdown after have found Mjolnir (his hammer) and got the powers and adobted the identity of the Norse God Thor. However I also belive that some of the memories and personality he now has was given to him by Mjolnir and the REAL Thunder God Thor is out there somewhere.
It would make a good story and twist if the real one came to get his hammer back and we would found out that he lost it during a big fight in Asgard (with Loki and his minions maybe).
Picture this; it's the final battle between the Ultimates and Loki with minions on Earth and after Thor (the false one) gets hit with a devestating blow, knocking him almost unconscious and knocks the hammer from his grip, the REAL Thor steps out from the shadows and picking up the hammer to continue the fight against Loki.

:-|

What?! I thought it would be cool. :(
 
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say he's a god. *shrugs* Less taxing on the brain that way. I prefer to wait until April or May when the issue comes out. I doubt we'll know before then anyways. Be nice to see something kept the same though.
 
Ultimate Warrior said:
My theory about Thor is that the Thor we know in the comic is indeed a human that had a nervous breakdown after have found Mjolnir (his hammer) and got the powers and adobted the identity of the Norse God Thor. However I also belive that some of the memories and personality he now has was given to him by Mjolnir and the REAL Thunder God Thor is out there somewhere.
It would make a good story and twist if the real one came to get his hammer back and we would found out that he lost it during a big fight in Asgard (with Loki and his minions maybe).
Picture this; it's the final battle between the Ultimates and Loki with minions on Earth and after Thor (the false one) gets hit with a devestating blow, knocking him almost unconscious and knocks the hammer from his grip, the REAL Thor steps out from the shadows and picking up the hammer to continue the fight against Loki.

:-|

What?! I thought it would be cool. :(

Me likey :)
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
I dunno if I'm crazy about UW's theory. Then we have to deal with two different Thor characters.

Well, in the theory I stated that the false Thor got some memories and personality from Mjolnir. And in that case those would return to the real Thor when he gets the hammer back, which in turn would make the false Thor get back to the state he was before his breakdown (non-hero/God state). This leads to just one Thor remaining (the real one).

Better? :?
 
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