Ultimates 2 #5 HIT ME! ( SPOILERS)

Bass said:
So, who's Judas?! :D
We already have another thread here dedicated to precisely that subject... ;)

ourchair said:
No, Mark Millar already wrote Ultimate Jesus. It's called Chosen. :crazy: :lol:
Did anybode else here actually finish Chosen?

If so, are you worried that Millar will just say 'to Hell with it all', and reveal that Thor is * Chosen spoiler* actually the son of Ultimate Mephisto with his six coc ks? :lol:
 
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Caduceus said:
Looking at it in a slightly different direction, this time is Thor's "three days" dead.
Yes, that would be my interpretation as well. I don't think we're going to see Odin or anyone else from Asgard; I think Thor is on his own here.

Here's a random thought on the "deity vs. technology" discussion: in the Ultimate War story arc in Ultimate X-Men, written by Mark Millar, Xavier "mind-freezes" everyone who isn't a mutant, including Thor, who is presumably wearing the same belt that is supposed to protect him from psychic attacks in Ultimates 2. Explanations? :? (My copy of this is out at the moment, but I seem to remember Thor's outfit is the standard one we see in the Ultimates, although he's gone from having two hoop earrings in his left ear to having one earing in each ear. Why on Earth I notice things like that.... :roll: )

Like Moonmaster, I re-read all of the Ultimates 2 issues this past weekend. Could someone check this for me, please: in the restaurant scene in Issue 1, where Thor is talking to Volstaag, is there any indication that Thor sees or knows that the fellow who looks like Gunnar is behind him? This struck me as being fairly strong evidence that Loki-as-Gunnar really is manipulating reality. Is is possible to hallucinate something that you don't know is there? (Did that question make sense to anyone? :dazed: ) Thor doesn't appear to perceive Gunnar's presence at all. Volstaag I can accept as a hallucination, since Thor was responding to him while no one else saw him. But Gunnar never seems to be where Thor can see him or interact with him in that scene. Ditto for the Italy demonstration scene in Issue 4, although that one's more difficult, as I'm not sure where Gunnar would have been standing in relation to Thor's position. Any insight on this?

I did look at the title on Issue 5: the outside cover says "The Passion Play", while the inside title page says "The Passion". Hm. Maybe we should check and see if anyone who looked like Gunnar was hanging around the printer's when this issue went to press.... :wink:
 
Bass said:
I know that Thor has Jesus parallels, but when Thor gets freed, he's going to tear Loki into pieces
And this scientifically proves why Thor is better than Jesus Christ.

Well, next census, I'm writing down Thorite or something. What is a follower of Thor called? 'Cause that's what I am now.)

It's Called Asatru. I would know, I am one. :)
 
Seldes Katne said:
Yes, that would be my interpretation as well. I don't think we're going to see Odin or anyone else from Asgard; I think Thor is on his own here.

Here's a random thought on the "deity vs. technology" discussion: in the Ultimate War story arc in Ultimate X-Men, written by Mark Millar, Xavier "mind-freezes" everyone who isn't a mutant, including Thor, who is presumably wearing the same belt that is supposed to protect him from psychic attacks in Ultimates 2. Explanations? :? (My copy of this is out at the moment, but I seem to remember Thor's outfit is the standard one we see in the Ultimates, although he's gone from having two hoop earrings in his left ear to having one earing in each ear. Why on Earth I notice things like that.... :roll: )

Like Moonmaster, I re-read all of the Ultimates 2 issues this past weekend. Could someone check this for me, please: in the restaurant scene in Issue 1, where Thor is talking to Volstaag, is there any indication that Thor sees or knows that the fellow who looks like Gunnar is behind him? This struck me as being fairly strong evidence that Loki-as-Gunnar really is manipulating reality. Is is possible to hallucinate something that you don't know is there? (Did that question make sense to anyone? :dazed: ) Thor doesn't appear to perceive Gunnar's presence at all. Volstaag I can accept as a hallucination, since Thor was responding to him while no one else saw him. But Gunnar never seems to be where Thor can see him or interact with him in that scene. Ditto for the Italy demonstration scene in Issue 4, although that one's more difficult, as I'm not sure where Gunnar would have been standing in relation to Thor's position. Any insight on this?
Oh, damn... now I'm just not sure about anything anymore... :dazed: I wish I knew, I wish I knew... Key observations once again, Seldes.

ThunderMace said:
It's Called Asatru. I would know, I am one.

OoooO.... Welcome ThunderMace. :twisted:
 
Seldes Katne said:
Could someone check this for me, please: in the restaurant scene in Issue 1, where Thor is talking to Volstaag, is there any indication that Thor sees or knows that the fellow who looks like Gunnar is behind him?

There really is no indication that he does. He doesn't acknowledge him. And one could reasonably assume that if he did see him he would do something to confront him.
 
I havent been reading this thread or anything, but I'm still not understanding what Thor's claims have to do with the final page of the issue. Maybe my brains just not working today.
 
Seldes Katne said:
... in the restaurant scene in Issue 1, where Thor is talking to Volstaag, is there any indication that Thor sees or knows that the fellow who looks like Gunnar is behind him? This struck me as being fairly strong evidence that Loki-as-Gunnar really is manipulating reality. Is is possible to hallucinate something that you don't know is there? (Did that question make sense to anyone? :dazed: )

yes, i was wondering the same thing at the time (well, questioning really), but guij (??) put me right. like UltimateE said: if he had known, he would have confronted him. you dont hallucinate something that you dont interact with. or something.
 
ultimatedjf said:
I havent been reading this thread or anything, but I'm still not understanding what Thor's claims have to do with the final page of the issue. Maybe my brains just not working today.

No, understandable. I think people are putting too much stock into it at the moment. Basically it's this: Thor has spent this entire series spouting off on SHIELD and the US government because he says it's only a matter of time before they are used in the war in the Middle East. Of course SHIELD and the Ultimates say this is preposterous. But then Thor gets locked up and guess what? Fury says they need to check out some trouble brewing in the Middle East.

I think there's too much being read into it, at least at this point - I'm not saying it won't develop into something significant but right now it looks like that's not necessarily a major story.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Oh, damn... now I'm just not sure about anything anymore... :dazed: I wish I knew, I wish I knew...
If it helps, MWOF, I think at this point that Thor's the real deal, or at the very least, Gunnar's story in Issue 4 is fabrication. The tech doesn't seem to work in the Ultimate War story arc (written by the same author as Ultimates 2), Gunnar is in places he shouldn't be, and not everything can be chalked up to delusion on Thor's part. (Granted, as an author, I understand that character development is an ongoing process, and Millar might not have had Thor's complete origin mapped out when he did the Ultimate War arc, but still....) Millar may come up with an explanation by the end of Ultimates 2 that tosses both possibilities out the window, but I can't be held responsible for that. :wink:

All this thinking is giving me a headache. :D I'll let you folks continue the discussion, as I'm off on vacation the rest of this week. Have fun!
 
I was dead serious when I asked if people were concerned by the precedent Millar set, during Chosen. It was hands-down his most heartfelt, emotional, human story arc -- featuring VERY similar themes as the Thor subplot -- and he royally screwed it up with an ending that comes out of nowhere.

If he can do that to a property he owned and created (more or less), I'm scared to think what he could do with a character that he *might* have less of a personal attachment to...
 
Im sorry if this has already been brought up, but there is something i dont get...

The Ultimates believe Thor is a hoax right? That hes powerless without his harness and hammer?

Then WHY, OH WHY is he being held in the hulk cell instead of a regular prison. When doc ock lost his tenticles he went to regular prison since he was now normal (in the beginning of the hollywood arc). Same should go for Thor!
 
Seldes Katne said:
The tech doesn't seem to work in the Ultimate War story arc (written by the same author as Ultimates 2), Gunnar is in places he shouldn't be, and not everything can be chalked up to delusion on Thor's part. (Granted, as an author, I understand that character development is an ongoing process, and Millar might not have had Thor's complete origin mapped out when he did the Ultimate War arc, but still....)

Okay, let's explain how Ultimate continuity works.

Each title has its own, well-thought out, well-planned consistent continuity. Because the writers of these books have only 5 years worth of issues with which to reference, the continuity mistakes within each title are minimal, and due to a lack of proliferation of extra titles with the same characters but different writers, the continuity remains consistent and honest.

Continuity between the books is extremely "when it's needed". For example, the world is saved from bonafide aliens and no one as Midtown High seems to care. This is abound (and really, as it should be).

When the characters of any title meet up in a mini-series, or special and not one of the main four books, continuity disappears as people forget what's going on and when the story is supposed to take place in relation to everyone else's books.

This is probably the best way to do it, since you get all you need from one book, and don't need to read any other books to get the story. Nothing in UFF requires USM or vice-versa, and this is a good thing. When you buy multiple books in the same universe, it starts to feel connected, but not in any real hard-fast way, and it works so long as you just don't look too hard at it... :wink:

compound said:
If he can do that to a property he owned and created (more or less), I'm scared to think what he could do with a character that he *might* have less of a personal attachment to...

To be honest? I think the reason Millar's "Millarworld" comics were so poor was simply because he had little personal attachment to them, outside of shock value.

Look at the Ultimates. Millar loves those characters. And so does Hitch. They won't mess it up. You can tell more work goes into this book than anything either of them have ever done.

Nurhachi said:
Then WHY, OH WHY is he being held in the hulk cell instead of a regular prison. When doc ock lost his tenticles he went to regular prison since he was now normal (in the beginning of the hollywood arc). Same should go for Thor!

I posted my thoughts above. Thor, supposedly, stole secret super soldier technology and is a world-renown figure who has participated in the defeat of an alien invasion. He knows too much to be let into general population - and that's if the Ultimates want the details of his fate to be known.
 
I think the "traitor" in cahoots with Loki knows Thor is the real deal and wants to keep him safely out of the picture as he would be likely to spoil the plans of Loki's "allies".

What if the belt and and hammer are magical and this is Odin's way of empowering Thor in his earthly form?

There is still a lot of mystery concerning the workings of magic in the UU but beings like Dr.Strange and Pheonix suggest that it does exist.

Perhaps Loki knew that Thor could only wield his godly powers on this earth with the gifts from his father, but in order to trick the Ultimates he made up the story of the belt and hammer being man made instead of magical. I am sure he was also aided in this deception by the traitor and his shadowy masters.

As Loki said to Thor he could care less about everything else going on, he is just happy to screw with Thor as much as possible. He thinks Thor is done for, so he reveals more than he probably should to him.

And maybe that is Loki's fatal flaw, as now Thor knows there is a fox in the hen house and he could now potentailly undo more than just Loki's schemes.

It would be great if Thor was the key to undoing the big conspiracy, especially if it was due to Loki's bragging.
 
Was it stated somewhere that the traitor and Loki were working together? If it hasn't and I hope it wasn't, I'd like to see the two agendas somewhat seperate (though, I know Loki has already benefitted from the traitor). But still that's as far as the partnership goes. Wouldn't you guys like for things to not all tie in together?

And if they are working together, someone at comixfan brought up and interesting theory that had Tony Stark making a deal with Loki to remove the tumor.
 
Loki has stated that the traitor works for some friends of his. He knows who the traitor is, but it would seem the traitor is unaware of Loki's involvement. It seems Loki has several high-placing allies of influence and at least one of those, is in contact with the traitor. It is unlikely the traitor knows anything of Thor. It's been Loki all the way.

Also, Stark using Loki to get rid of his tumour? Really good idea except that I believe there is absolutely no indication that the tumour is missing. I'll check up properly later.
 
I think Loki's only adgenda is to screw with Thor, the "big conspiracy" is just his vehichle for that. Loki did not start the conspiracy, nor does he guide it, but he is obviously very aware of it.

The goal of the conspiracy is probably something big like world domination and it would be very satisfiying to see the conspirators regret their assocation with Loki due to his bragging.

Chances are the only reason the conspirators allied themselves with Loki is that they were desperate for a way to handle Thor and Loki offered them that.
 
ngnot said:
I think Loki's only adgenda is to screw with Thor, the "big conspiracy" is just his vehichle for that. Loki did not start the conspiracy, nor does he guide it, but he is obviously very aware of it.

The goal of the conspiracy is probably something big like world domination and it would be very satisfiying to see the conspirators regret their assocation with Loki due to his bragging.

Chances are the only reason the conspirators allied themselves with Loki is that they were desperate for a way to handle Thor and Loki offered them that.

I like that thinking...makes sense.
 
UltimateE said:
I like that thinking...makes sense.

What he said.

I want to elaborate a little on the last part about the traitors aligning themselves only to handle Thor. That also makes sense and I'm not arguing against it at all. It was a good point. While I read it I thought about how that might look on the pages. The only thing I see wrong with it is I can't picture these people aligning themselves with gods. I know Thor's on the Ultimates but he has a lot of human traits to him and as Norse Mythology goes Loki isn't a God but of a higher order. Point is I can't picture an interaction between Loki in his superior state (as in not playing Gunnar) striking a deal with a mortal. It just doesn't seem Ultimate to me.
 
i think this is 616 Franklin Richards screwing with the Ultimate Universe simply because he can. How does he know about this parallel universe? Ultimate Reed shows up and tells him about it!
 

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