Ultimates 2 #5 HIT ME! ( SPOILERS)

[E]

is it that serious seldes???

Have you read her other posts on Thor? She's hard core, man.

Great analysis, J. Can't wait to see Seldes's either.

 

[jtg3885]

Great analysis, J.

Yeah sure, I write that up, and people just want Seldes. You all suck. :evil:

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

What I think is that Thor is going to be the central figure for a new Norse Religion that will pop up all over the world.

All these little pieces seem to be aimed at that happening in the near future. How will the US handle a new Worldwide faith centered around a Norweigian citizen they've got locked up in their Super-prison?

And going along with the Jesus connections.... "On the Third Day he rose again, and ascended into heaven"....

He's going to escape, and he's going to do the equivalent of breaking the gates of hell.... kicking Loki's ***. Maybe we'll see him climbing the Rainbow road to asgard, condemning the Ultimates and Fury. I'd love to see Tony Stark to convert to Thorism, to leave his company to head this new World Religion, as the mirror image of St. Peter in the catholic faith.

Someone want to start a thread about the Thor - Christ connection?

 

[jtg3885]

What I think is that Thor is going to be the central figure for a new Norse Religion that will pop up all over the world.

He already has his crowd of followers, and claimed to be there to save the world. I don't see his following growing at this point. Quite the opposite really, their 'messiah' was taken down by super-humans. How can he be a god if the Captains, two armored soldiers, and a mutant could take him down? It's not like Jesus, where he went peacefully and resisted the temptation to bring the powers of God to bear against those who sought to bring him in. Thor brought his full might to bear and was taken out anyways.

And going along with the Jesus connections.... "On the Third Day he rose again, and ascended into heaven"....

He's going to escape, and he's going to do the equivalent of breaking the gates of hell.... kicking Loki's ***. Maybe we'll see him climbing the Rainbow road to asgard, condemning the Ultimates and Fury. I'd love to see Tony Stark to convert to Thorism, to leave his company to head this new World Religion, as the mirror image of St. Peter in the catholic faith.

He's essentially powerless right now. He's not going anywhere, because after Doc Ock, I'm sure SHIELD will be VERY careful to isolate any post-human from anything that can increase or reestablish their powers. Tony is a man of science, not religion. That'd be totally out of character for him, especially considering he thinks Thor is a paranoid schizophrenic, and says it to his face.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I don't think Thor will have anything to do with the next arc... anyone else?

 

[jtg3885]

I don't think Thor will have anything to do with the next arc... anyone else?

If he turns into another Banner (locked up until they need him), I'm gonna be really pissed. And burn a Millar effigy in my comic shop's parking lot.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I just think he won't be used until his mini... then again Vaughan with the whole "Magneto Escapes"... I'll get back to you guys...

 

[Seldes Katne]

Yeah sure, I write that up, and people just want Seldes. You all suck. :evil:

Actually, I agree with a lot of what you said, jtg. (For one thing, I was also underwhelmed by the performance of the Union supersoldiers.) But it is nice to feel wanted....

I'm going to apologize in advance if this is more incoherent than usual. I typed most of it at 1 o'clock this morning. (And before people start laughing at me, I'd like to point out that that had more to do with the two glasses of caffeinated iced tea I had the night before than my emotional state.) (Honest!)

Okay, Round One. I'm likely to be adding to this over the next few days, as more ideas occur to me. This is just an off-the-cuff write-up as I'm thinking over the issue, having just read it a few hours ago.

This issue was painful to read. (I really should learn not to take things like this into restaurants – I can't imagine what the waiter thought....) The sheer amount of physical damage done was giving me sympathy pains. And the surprise at seeing the page where Thor is apparently on fire nearly caused me to drop this book into my salad. :shock:

I'm sorry, UltimateE, but the word "cool" did not come to mind with the whole flame-thrower incident. (And I don't mean that as a play on words, although everyone's welcome to take it as such.) To me, that was downright sadistic. I'm not sure what Captain America expected to accomplish. Although.... hmmm. Maybe someone out there has more insight into this, or perhaps this is a gender-based observation, but isn't the removal of a person's hair a sort of psychological warfare? Didn't the Nazis shave the heads of the concentration camp prisoners? I know that in my country, Native American children who were taken to boarding schools to be "civilized" had their hair cut short to supposedly make them fit into white society. In the Plains Indian tribes in particular, this was either a sign of mourning, or of public humiliation. I realize there is a sizeable cultural difference between the three incidents, but that just kind of struck me. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.

jtg brought up an excellent point from Norse mythology, the fact that Thor does use the belt and gloves to swing Mjolnir. One question I had about the hardware (if it was indeed developed by Gunnar, as he claims) was how exactly Thor goes about "telling" the hardware to generate the storms and to teleport? There doesn't seem to be any magic words or button-pushing....

To go back to the Thor/Jesus parallel that's been noted by a number of people: in Christian teachings, after Jesus was crucified, he spent three days "among the dead". Some people interpret this as meaning he actually spent time in Hell, where presumably he was at the mercy of Satan. (Sound familiar?) However, after three days he rose again from the dead and reappeared to his disciplines and various other people, and then ascended into Heaven, returning to his Father. If the parallel continues, Thor stands an excellent chance of being released, or freeing himself, from his prison in the Triskelion, and getting back into the action in some form. I have to confess, when Mark Millar commented that this issue was entitled "The Passion", I honestly thought he was joking. I was certainly wrong about that! I do think he's going to play a role in the upcoming arc. After all, Thor's own prediction about the Ultimates being deployed in the Middle East is coming true.

I'm wondering how much of this is a test of Thor's own faith in himself. His colleagues have all turned their backs on him, his "brother" is taunting him (and there's the question of whether or not "Gunnar" is actually there, or whether he's a hallucination), and Thor is being treated as a criminal. (Again, parallel to the treatment of Christ.) If a psychiatrist is involved at some point, that will put more pressure on Thor to accept himself as delusional, rather than as a god.

I think it's odd that Thor's being held in the Triskelion — that's where they keep the high-powered mutants and other super criminals. If the powers that be see Thor as just a delusional human who has been divested of his supersoldier hardware (and is therefore no danger to anyone but himself), why don't they just ship him off to a psychiatric facility somewhere? Why does he need to be kept in the strongest possible prison on the planet? Wasn't Banner's room meant to contain, or at least slow down, the Hulk? Isn't that kind of overkill? (This also leads me to wonder why Thor is in US custody anyway -- the stuff he supposedly stole belongs to, if not Norway itself, certainly to people who live and work there. And the demonstrations at which Thor supposedly attacked police were in Italy. Could someone with more familiarity with international law help me out here?)

I would also be very, very interested in knowing where Mjolnir and the rest of the hardware are right now. Are they being stored in the Triskelion? Returned to the technicians in Europe? At the very least, whoever has this stuff wants to think carefully about who is going to end up wielding it. In many respects, Thor was the best person to have it — he seems to be the most benevolent and altruistic of the characters in this title.

And something else that just occurred to me: Gunnar-as-Loki says he can shuffle reality like a pack of cards. In this issue, Wanda claims she can move realities around, too. Maybe we should lock these two in a room together, sans Pietro, and see what happens. (And minds out of the gutters on this one, please.) Possible plot twist down the road? It would be nice to see Wanda actually do something in this title for a change. (Okay, I guess I'm being catty there....) Pietro finally seemed to do something effetive where we could actually see him for a change. And he apparently did it because he thought Thor hurt Wanda. (Although I'd be a lot more impressed by that if the relationship between brother and sister didn't kind of creep me out....)

Flying into Thor's mouth seems like a colossally stupid idea on Wasp's part... what the hell did she expect from Thor? "Oh, I'll just stand here and let you fry my brain from the inside!" Of course he's gonna swallow.

She actually used this as a successful tactic against Doctor Octavius in the Ultimate Six story arc. I'm not sure why it didn't work here. On the one hand, Thor deals with electricity on a regular basis, so she might not be able to generate enough of a charge to harm him. Or one could claim the belt and harness protect him.

Have you read her other posts on Thor? She's hard core, man.

Um, and that's good, right? :dazed:

I think there were more comments I planned to add, and right now I can't remember what they were. Eventually they may come back to me. (After I've gotten a decent night's sleep, perhaps. :wink: ) Oh, and I'm also thinking I may have to get a copy of the front cover of this issue for the wall in my office.... :heybaby: [coughs discreetly]

 

[E]

I'm sorry, UltimateE, but the word "cool" did not come to mind with the whole flame-thrower incident. (And I don't mean that as a play on words, although everyone's welcome to take it as such.) To me, that was downright sadistic. I'm not sure what Captain America expected to accomplish. Although.... hmmm. Maybe someone out there has more insight into this, or perhaps this is a gender-based observation, but isn't the removal of a person's hair a sort of psychological warfare?

I liked it because that was classic Ultimate Cap. No nonsense, do what has to be done and do it quickly. And it fits with his "old time" war values. He firmly believed (or was led to believe) that Thor was a HUGE potential danger - he had to do what he had to do to take him down.

As for the hair...that's possible, but I don't think that he "went for" Thor's hair. He used a weapon, a flamethrower, and one of the problems with being on fire is that your hair can burn off. I don't want to call it a side effect but you catch my drift.

I think it's odd that Thor's being held in the Triskelion — that's where they keep the high-powered mutants and other super criminals. If the powers that be see Thor as just a delusional human who has been divested of his supersoldier hardware (and is therefore no danger to anyone but himself),

Maybe I misunderstood J's post, but Thor is not *totally* powerless without his belt, is he?

I would also be very, very interested in knowing where Mjolnir and the rest of the hardware are right now. Are they being stored in the Triskelion? Returned to the technicians in Europe? At the very least, whoever has this stuff wants to think carefully about who is going to end up wielding it. In many respects, Thor was the best person to have it — he seems to be the most benevolent and altruistic of the characters in this title.

Not only that - but who was able to lift it and take it elsewhere? :shock:

Um, and that's good, right? :dazed:

Haha - yes.

 

[slimjim]

Quick question if thors not a god and his hardware was man made. how did he transport the bomb in the homeland security arc?????????????????????

 

[E]

Quick question if thors not a god and his hardware was man made. how did he transport the bomb in the homeland security arc?????????????????????

Tha'ts exactly why I say we haven't seen the last of Thor. This is far from explained.

 

[slimjim]

I really want to see thor get back at captain america

 

[Seldes Katne]

Maybe I misunderstood J's post, but Thor is not *totally* powerless without his belt, is he?

I think it's Dr. Braddock who is urging everyone to get Thor's belt, since, quote "Without the belt, Thor's completely powerless". (Bottom panel of page five, because I'm such the librarian at all times.... :wink: )

And yes, I'm sure the "hair" issue was strictly a secondary result of the fire attack. Just a thought on my part.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Yeah, about Braddock telling them to get the belt...

Now in the second page of the bottom panel the guard is talkin' to the girl but the speech balloon is directed at the person walkin' off... thats a mistake obviously... and I also think that it would've made more sense if Loki was the guy saying "grab the belt" Don't you?

 

[E]

I think it's Dr. Braddock who is urging everyone to get Thor's belt, since, quote "Without the belt, Thor's completely powerless". (Bottom panel of page five, because I'm such the librarian at all times.... :wink: )

I should've been specific - I meatn the Thor of Norse mythology. Without his gloves and belt, he's not totally powerless, right?

Now in the second page of the bottom panel the guard is talkin' to the girl but the speech balloon is directed at the person walkin' off

Yeah I noticed that too...weird.

 

[Wamu]

no cross overs please

Getting a bit more in-depth...



And of course, we have the two ending scenes at the Triskelion. Seeing once and for all that Gunnar is Loki is a nice touch, although Thor specifying that he was sent to save 'this world' makes me wonder if this is all being groomed towards a 616/UU crossover. Or maybe they're just going with the nine worlds of traditional Norse mythology.

I hate crossovers. with the exception of Black Panther and Supreme Power(which I guess are considered in different universes?) I don't read any non-ultimate books. and a crossover wouldn't change my mind.

I can understand from a marketing standpoint why they would want to do it. "hey lets increase expousure of our great books to a new audience" bleah

 

[E]

Whoa whoa...jumping the gun there I think. I'm sure that by "this world" he just meant Earth, as opposed to his home in Asgard.

 

[Seldes Katne]

I should've been specific - I meatn the Thor of Norse mythology. Without his gloves and belt, he's not totally powerless, right?

Right. In the myths (and I'm operating from memory here, so I could be off), Thor's still a pretty tough fellow; the belt increases his strength, the gloves protect his hands, but he could still use the hammer without them.

I would love to have Thor turn out to be the real thing and discover his ability to call up storms and such without the technology. Yet another reason I'm wondering where the hammer is -- if the techies at the Triskelion have it, I should think they'd be prying it open to see how it works. And I had to laugh at your question about who could have actually lifted Mjolnir to carry it away. Makes for a great mental picture....

 

[Bass]

Well, I've come to the conclusion I am Thor.

See, when I got the issue, it was raining, and I read it on the bus, whilst it rained outside.

Rain = Me as Thunder God.

Okay, maybe not. Maybe I'm just Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch. Call me Millitch. Or Hitllar.

Wait. Not the second one.

See, I didn't think Millar would actually call #5 "The Passion", nor did I actually Think that they were going to shave Thor's head. But they did. So I forget if I was right or not.

Anyway...

This is the only comic to really put a lump in my throat.

The first hint that I would bawl like a baby was seeing Thor flamed. But the real kicker, for me, was when Thor plummets from the sky, calling out to his father... Poor guy.

As for his power being linked to his belt and all that - I never thought what he wore was just an ornament. Loki knew Thor's weakness was his belt. He just said "the belt is the source of his powers because" and then he crossed out "Odin, our father, gave it to him" and replaced it with "he's stolen my super soldier hardware".

Get it? Lies inside the truth. Makes it easier to swallow.

Poor, poor, Thor.

But I think, paralleling with Hulk, who came back in the second part of the Ultimates, Thor will no doubt return in Grand Theft America to help warn us about the traitor in the group and finally have it out with Loki once and for all.

And I think Tony may be the reason Thor gets back into the action.

You will note, he is the only one not sitting down reading the briefs when Fury tells them that there is trouble in the Middle East...

In any case, superb work. I'm very, very delighted that I am so desperately unhappy. I know that sounds weird, but I think you can understand what I mean.

 

[Bass]

Oh, as for Quicksilver.

Y'know, I'd like to say something quite clever Hitllar did.

Quicksilver is responsible for Thor ending up where he ends up.

But rather than have Quicksilver just show up and do it (say, like in Ultimate X-Men #6), Hitllar did something clever. #4 ends with Thor taking him out mercilessly. And during #5, Quicksilver gets off his stretcher to try again, but is taken out. He tries again, and he's taken out quite dismissively by Thor. His sister tells him Thor hurt him and he jumps into the middle of the ionized storm, the most dangerous place he could be (especially after being struck by lightning three times in a row) and succeeds.

Quicksilver's a hero.

Considering how contemptable his portrayal has been (which was also well done) its a very nice way to make us (or me at least) respect Quicksilver. A fair thing to have Thor fall but say, "Hey, give Quicksilver some credit. He really did do a good job." Kind of like losing a football match, to a team that really did their best. Fair play to them.

And I suppose that's what Hitllar wants, since I feel I must focus all my murderous hate-rage on that insidious Loki.

grrrrr