Ultimates 2 #7 discussion (spoilers)

[marvelman]

Peace, brothers.

 

[Bass]

I want to know why Hawkeye's family is dead, don't you? He's enough of an insider for it to be shocking. And frankly, the motive for any of the Ultimates for killing this family would seem forced wouldn't it? None of them seem able to pull the trigger on a child and all seem to be quite satisfied with the life they have in the Ultimates.

I know - which I was I'm very apprehensive about the reveal. I'm really worried it won't make any sense no matter who it is. The motives put forth in #6 made the traitor make sense, while #7 seems to have made it completely implausible that it's any of these characters, except those who have had so little development that it doesn't really matter if they're the traitor or not.

Loki had been in cahoots with the traitor from the beginning, Volstagg said that Loki had aligned himself with a power that even the supersoldiers couldn't win against. He was always there. There is no reason to think that he didn't know about Thor's belt.

Actually, there is. Loki has joined forces with something Thor could not match. It is that force the traitor works for. This is an indication that the traitor has absolutely no idea Loki even exists - except upon meeting him as Gunnar, and even then, the traitor would assume that Gunnar is part of 'the enemy', and not on his side since he's designed the Union, and the traitor is against the superheroes as weapons initiative (or at least, these specific incarnations of that agenda).

And as for changing reality so that Thor would be disarmed by the removal of the belt, we don't know this is true. You're just reaching now. We can only assume that Thor is a guy and a god and doesn't necessarily have any of the powers afforded to him by the belt himself. While it may be true what you say, it's not been written.

Thor's weakness was only told to anyone by Gunnar, and Thor has claimed he has altered reality to turn everyone against him. This is an implication that Loki invented Thor's weakness or, as his brother, knew of it and told everyone else. While you are correct, it's possible Thor's powers being attached to the belt had nothing to do with Loki, this Achilles' heel has nothing to do with the traitor. It is either priveliged information Loki has shared with others, or Loki's invention (and indeed, according to the video, Loki did invent the belt, which is why I've always assumed it was a part of Loki's reality manipulation). Either scenario excludes the traitor from actually being involved in any way with Thor's downfall - the downfall was orchestrated and perpetrated by Loki.

The removal of the members of the Ultimates has been systematic, Hulk was strong, Thor was strong, and a way to remove them was engineered between the efforts of Loki and the traitor. I would say that the traitor did indeed know Loki's plans and by that, about the belt.

Well, no I'm afraid there's no link to the traitor's actions and Loki's. As Loki stated, the traitor doesn't work for him, but for some friends of his and it's quite unlikely that the traitor even knows who Loki is. Remember, Loki had nothing to do with the Hulk's outing, but the Thor incident was all his idea.

Also, the Hulk's trial had nothing to do with Thor's downfall. It had no effect. The only effect the Hulk's trial had on Thor was that some people thought that Thor was responsible for the leak - but that's not why the beat the piss out of him. They beat up Thor because Loki created a riot in Italy and made it look like Thor was attacking a democratic police force.

Loki took out Thor because he hates him, and to get him out of the way for his future plans. However, it seems he waited for the Hulk to go so that Thor would have a cell.

The Hulk was taken out for reasons as yet unknown. I thought it was because the traitor believed Hulk had escaped justice, but considering the traitor is a child-killer working for Loki's associates, it's possible that there's another reason entirely.

Also, the statement about the traitor's systematic removal of the 'strong guys'; another Ultimate is no longer part of the group - Giant Man, and the traitor is courting him while he's not even talking to Thor (unless the traitor is Iron Man). If you look at it, the traitor got rid of Hulk/Banner, and is courting Pym. If anything, it's not the strong ones the traitor wants out of the way - but the scientists.

Everything will make sense in the end.

*crosses fingers*

I'm going to do another manifesto once I find my scanner cable.

 

[Guijllons]

Actually, there is. Loki has joined forces with something Thor could not match. It is that force the traitor works for. This is an indication that the traitor has absolutely no idea Loki even exists - except upon meeting him as Gunnar, and even then, the traitor would assume that Gunnar is part of 'the enemy', and not on his side since he's designed the Union, and the traitor is against the superheroes as weapons initiative (or at least, these specific incarnations of that agenda).

While it's possible that the traitor is just working with this force and is a different arm of the group to Loki, the role the traitor has taken in Ultimates #7 suggests that he's in some sort of position of influence. He may be just leading that squad, but for the traitor to just be working for someone, and the overall agenda not really being all his own weakens the storytelling too.
You say that the traitor would assume that Gunnar was the enemy, well, all of the Ultimates have played their part in acting as weapons - apart from Wasp (who is the most responsible answer). So if they are prepared to act themselves, then why would they knee jerk to condemn someone who is helping in their own agenda?

Thor's weakness was only told to anyone by Gunnar, and Thor has claimed he has altered reality to turn everyone against him. This is an implication that Loki invented Thor's weakness or, as his brother, knew of it and told everyone else. While you are correct, it's possible Thor's powers being attached to the belt had nothing to do with Loki, this Achilles' heel has nothing to do with the traitor. It is either priveliged information Loki has shared with others, or Loki's invention (and indeed, according to the video, Loki did invent the belt, which is why I've always assumed it was a part of Loki's reality manipulation). Either scenario excludes the traitor from actually being involved in any way with Thor's downfall - the downfall was orchestrated and perpetrated by Loki.

While the belt may be part of Loki's reality shifting, this doesn't really change anything. The two are in cahoots, the Hulk and Thor were both removed. These were not coincidences. The traitor says "I have a plan to get rid of the Hulk". Loki says "Great, I have a plan to get rid of Thor". It seems that Loki was hired to do a job that the traitor couldn't do, the traitor may even have had a hand in releasing Loki from "the room without doors".

Well, no I'm afraid there's no link to the traitor's actions and Loki's. As Loki stated, the traitor doesn't work for him, but for some friends of his and it's quite unlikely that the traitor even knows who Loki is. Remember, Loki had nothing to do with the Hulk's outing, but the Thor incident was all his idea.

Also, the Hulk's trial had nothing to do with Thor's downfall. It had no effect. The only effect the Hulk's trial had on Thor was that some people thought that Thor was responsible for the leak - but that's not why the beat the piss out of him. They beat up Thor because Loki created a riot in Italy and made it look like Thor was attacking a democratic police force.

Loki took out Thor because he hates him, and to get him out of the way for his future plans.

The Hulk was taken out for reasons as yet unknown. I thought it was because the traitor believed Hulk had escaped justice, but considering the traitor is a child-killer working for Loki's associates, it's possible that there's another reason entirely.

Also, another Ultimate is no longer part of the group - Giant Man, and the traitor is courting him. If you look at it, the traitor got rid of Hulk and Banner, and is courting Pym. If anything, it's not the strong ones the traitor wants out of the times - but the scientists.

Hawkeye is hardly a scientist, what's that, misdirection?
You keep saying that the Hulk and the Thor removals from the team are not related. Yes, they are, they are related in that they are removed from the team. There is a common goal of the traitor and the organisation, and Loki was just getting at Thor because he hates him. But, Volsatagg said that Loki had aligned himself with forces that Thor couldn't match. Loki needed the help of the Ultimates, and those who control the Ultimates and influence the actions of the Ultimates. Or at least, the superpeople, or person, or whoever the traitor is. So the traitor knew that a way would be made clear to remove Thor since they were being relied upon to do it.
Loki gave reason for the Ultimates to take Thor down, something that the traitor could not have done. All Loki has done is alter perception, made it look like Thor is crazy. He hasn't done anything to the scale of making Thor weak as a kitten by having his belt removed.

And I've totally lost track of the point I'm arguing. And it's Wednesday now anyway. Wednesday means it's "Wasp did it day".

Now that makes sense. Apart from the killing bit.

 

[marvelman]

With the Loki altering reality bit, I took it as Loki warped everyone else's brains into doing or seeing Thor in a different light, seeing him as crazy instead of the real deal. How else do you explain Tony's sudden change of faith? He trusts thor to teleport a bomb, and then, thors just a crazy man. What I'm saying here is that, like in Norse Mythology, Thor's power is AMPLIFIED by the belt (and bracelets, but not in the comic) and his lightning/weather power SOURCE is the hammer; the belt and bracelets give him the strength to lift it.

What I'm saying HERE is that Loki just messed with everyone's mind to make them lose faith in thor when the weakness was already there.

Got me? :shock: :lol:

 

[E]

Peace, brothers.

Are you kidding? This is some of the best discussion this site has ever had.

 

[marvelman]

... okaa---aaaay...

:straps helmet on head and hides in bomb shelter:

Ferrets only!

(by this, i just mean they seemed angry earlier. the content of speculation, i agree, is great though)

 

[DIrishB]

Yes, your leg has now grown back.

What happened to it originally?

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

But... But this isn't about Ultimates 2 #7 at all!

*gasp of horror*

:cry:

 

[Guijllons]

What happened to it originally?

You lost it in a game of strip poker. Now that's unlucky.

 

[iceman]

The traitor is Captain Confederacy! The never before mentioned Southern Captain America. ... He was on Ultimates West Coast.

 

[Bass]

While it's possible that the traitor is just working with this force and is a different arm of the group to Loki, the role the traitor has taken in Ultimates #7 suggests that he's in some sort of position of influence. He may be just leading that squad, but for the traitor to just be working for someone, and the overall agenda not really being all his own weakens the storytelling too.

Actually, Thor's warning would imply that the death of Hawkeye (or just his family) seems to be indeed an order that the traitor executed (no pun intended) and NOT one s/he pioneered.

You say that the traitor would assume that Gunnar was the enemy, well, all of the Ultimates have played their part in acting as weapons - apart from Wasp (who is the most responsible answer). So if they are prepared to act themselves, then why would they knee jerk to condemn someone who is helping in their own agenda?

Huh? I said that the traitor would lump Gunnar with the Ultimates as 'enemies' because Gunnar helped create the Union whom the traitor seems to be betraying along with the Ultimates (since the two groups are working together). In fact, since Thor is the only one on either team against the aggressive actions of Fury and SHIELD, the traitor probably was on HIS side and maybe tried to purposely not do him any harm during the fight.

While the belt may be part of Loki's reality shifting, this doesn't really change anything. The two are in cahoots, the Hulk and Thor were both removed. These were not coincidences. The traitor says "I have a plan to get rid of the Hulk". Loki says "Great, I have a plan to get rid of Thor". It seems that Loki was hired to do a job that the traitor couldn't do, the traitor may even have had a hand in releasing Loki from "the room without doors".

But if anything, Thor is someone the traitor wants to keep around as Thor was already anti-the Ultimates. He'd left the team, told Captain America to **** off, and was attacking the governments (both in publications and physically) that the traitor has made a stand against. You say the traitor and Loki are working together or that Loki is hired to do something the traitor couldn't do, but it is apparent that the reverse is true. Loki talks with an impunity that expresses he is far higher up the food chain than the traitor. If anything, it's the other way round. The traitor was hired by Loki's friends to take out Hulk, while Loki took out Thor because he wanted to, and coincided it with the Hulk's removal so Thor would have the Hulk's old cell, putting him in a position where he'd be forced to watch the destruction of everything he cares about.

Hawkeye is hardly a scientist, what's that, misdirection?

The betrayal of Hawkeye is vastly different to Hulk/Banner and Giant Man. Firstly, we're not yet sure that the traitor wanted Banner dead. It's possible that the traitor is the one who actually kept Hulk alive or gave Giant Man the idea to keep him alive. Remember, Giant Man is the only one who knows Hulk is actually alive and it's somewhat apparent he's responsible for the Hulk waking up in time (unless, there was more to what Iron Man put in Banner's hand than meets the eye...) and he talks to the traitor. Remember that Giant Man was aware of who was being 'phased out' of the Ultimates and that he may already have been talking to the traitor at that time. Perhaps this is why Fury looks the way he does - he knows there's a traitor and he thinks Pym knows who the traitor is. Which would also explain why he wants nothing to do with Pym's creations. Indeed, if Pym knew who the traitor was and the two of them planned to keep Hulk alive, then it's possible that the traitor didn't tell Pym s/he was responsible for the outing (unlikely) or the traitor told Pym s/he only wanted to out Hulk, not get him executed.

To sum up, Giant Man was kicked from the team and is now a black sheep to them. Hulk was turned into a black sheep, that is believed dead, except Pym is the only one who knows he is alive. The traitor is courting Pym. It is possible the traitor knows Hulk is alive and is trying to turn both of them, and its possible s/he didn't mean for the Hulk to get killed, or that s/he engineered it so Hulk is now a fugitive presumed dead. In any case, it seems that in both cases, it was more important to humiliate the Ultimates and expose their infighting than to actually kill anyone.

But look at how the traitor handles Hawkeye. No exposing, no shady deals, no trickery. Waits until he's had a dinner with four other Ultimates, barges in with a commando squad, kills his entire family, and then... maybe... shoots Hawkeye in the head several times. He doesn't try to alienate him. He just kills him.

Hulk and Giant Man are political strategy. Hawkeye is an assassination and a military operation. It's obvious the traitor regards the team's scientists differently to its soldiers.

Also, here's another way to look at it: The traitor has a methodology. First, the scientists are gone. Now the muscle is taken out. Systematic elimination as you suggest - just starting with the brains and not the brawn.

You keep saying that the Hulk and the Thor removals from the team are not related. Yes, they are, they are related in that they are removed from the team. There is a common goal of the traitor and the organisation, and Loki was just getting at Thor because he hates him. But, Volsatagg said that Loki had aligned himself with forces that Thor couldn't match. Loki needed the help of the Ultimates, and those who control the Ultimates and influence the actions of the Ultimates. Or at least, the superpeople, or person, or whoever the traitor is. So the traitor knew that a way would be made clear to remove Thor since they were being relied upon to do it.

Volstagg and Loki make it clear that Loki was after Thor and that taking out Thor was a bit of malice-fueld fun on Loki's part but not part of his overall agenda which is "The War To End All Wars". He doesn't want Thor around for that, and yes the traitor's actions and Thor are linked BUT the traitor has nothing to do with Thor being in jail now. None of his actions had any effect on it. As I say, I think Loki took advantage of the upcoming situation. His ally is in charge of the traitor. The traitor goes, "I'm gonna out Banner". The ally says, "Good idea" and then tells Loki about it who goes, "Really? Great, I'll put my brother in Banner's old cell". Volstagg warned Thor about Loki before the outing, but Loki didn't make a move until after the Banner thing was resolved. It reeks of Loki finding out his associates plans and using it to advantage without telling anyone what he's really up to.

To summarise, Loki is responsible for Thor being in prison. Not the traitor in anyway shape or form. And it sounds like Loki took advantage of his ally's wolf in the fold's plan to oust Banner to get rid of Thor.

Where we differ is you think the traitor either knew about Loki's plan to get rid of Thor or even commissioned it whereas I reckon that the traitor doesn't even know Loki exists and Loki used his knowledge of the traitor's plans to take out Thor while the team was in disarray.

Think about it - Loki's removal of Thor has actually made the traitor even more anti-Ultimates. Without Thor, the Ultimates went straight to the middle-east which is what prompted the Hawkeye retaliation. The 'other side' responded to the middle-east incident which would have certainly not gone as planned if Thor was still around. By removing Thor, Loki got a win-win scenario. His brother is out of the way, and he's removed the conscience of the Ultimates so that they will attack a middle-east country resulting in his associates and the traitor responding by retaliating and starting this war.

See what I mean? To me, Loki isn't a hired hitman. Loki is pulling the strings of not just his ally, but his ally's enemy as well...

Loki gave reason for the Ultimates to take Thor down, something that the traitor could not have done. All Loki has done is alter perception, made it look like Thor is crazy. He hasn't done anything to the scale of making Thor weak as a kitten by having his belt removed.

But... Loki also told them about the belt. And according to Loki, he INVENTED the belt. So, he's completely responsible for Thor being weak as a kitten. No one else is. If it wasn't for Loki, not only would they're have been no strike against Thor, but there would be no 'belt'. The whole origin of Thor is Loki's idea. He created it (he was there when it was first mentioned in "Thunder"). It's all Loki. He made Thor seem crazy, and gave him a weakness (again, either he completely invented it or he shared the knowledge of it) - this scale you speak of is him entirely.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

word

 

[Bass]

word

 

[E]

 

[Nurhachi]

 

[ProjectX2]

Uh oh! A swear word!

*hides*

 

[Ultimate Houde]

It's nice to know I started a trend

 

[Bass]

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[Entropy]

You know what, I've been saying its Cap but I'm going to pull a 180 and say it isn't. I think its Tony. I have my reasons for this, I'll post them later. Mainly it stems out of things that were said in his convo with Thor though, but other things.

 

[GMaster]

Just read Ultimates 2 #7. But not because I got it. Oh no. I had top FREAKIN DOWNLOAD IT!
How crap is that? I couldn't get to the comic shop. Goddamn. But its all ok. I am still paying for the comic. I just couldn't wait. Sorry. Its illeegal I know. I broke the law. But its Mark's fault. He just made it too damn good. Don't arrest me!