Ultimates 2 #8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[14rdb]

SHIELD DISSASSEMBLING - Guys, I don't mean SHIELD pulls the plug on themselves. Fury is already under fire from his own government about this and the rest of the world is scared of the U.S. because of him. If SHIELD pulls the plug on the supersoldier program all together it will be because they have no choice after the events of this arc and everyone will tell them they have too. Like Rawb said, All these 60 foot men and other playboys SHIELD has now is too much for a background security team which is what SHIELD will be after this arc. I believe they're all gonna loose their powers by the end of this.

I can't see this happening. The Union exists in Europe. The USSR made progress in superhuman development thanks to the discovery of Vision and that knowledge and experience could find its way into use by former Soviet nations at any time. There are real extraterrestrial forces that threaten the very existence of life on Earth that S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't take down without the use of superhuman forces.

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

 

[Rawb]

I can second it! I took a look and i am positive i see loki there again. That guy is EVERYWHERE.

Thanks for the background on your reference, Compound - I don't read DC.

I really hope that do indeed neutralize all the reserves and g-men powers. Argh.

I don't remember YJ joining the masters of evil. Around what issues were they? I remember in the late 220's that he was FORCED to join the masters of evil by egghead then single handedly took them all down (go Hank Pym!).

 

[Rawb]

I can't see this happening. The Union exists in Europe. The USSR made progress in superhuman development thanks to the discovery of Vision and that knowledge and experience could find its way into use by former Soviet nations at any time. There are real extraterrestrial forces that threaten the very existence of life on Earth that S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't take down without the use of superhuman forces.

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

That is an extremely good point, and it saddens me

 

[big danny d]

But how could hawkeye stand over himself and shoot himself all while holding his child in fear from being shot by..himself?

no he set it all up, knowing there were other potential cameras he didnt know about, i dont have the issue in front of me as im at work but i recall there being a small group of guys who stormed the house, and i also dont recall hawkeye being shown as dead or getting shot in the head. only that we were left to conclude he was infact shot and killed.

i dunno, just seems like something a guy we dont really know a whole lot about could have orchestrated something like this, maybe make the people hes betraying think he is infact dead?

but now that lokis there, that just means anythings possible and santa clause himself could be infact the killer *shrugs*

 

[Rawb]

Hehe true enough about anything goes as far as Loki... but I just really can't picture hawkeye murdering his family, or having it done. And hawkeye WAS shot during the attack.

I don't know, i just can't see it happening.

 

[compound]

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

Hence all the in-story references to the war-to-end-all-wars, and the looming threat of a new arms race, with Persons of Mass Destruction as the basis of martial strength.

I think Millar was drawing an intentional parallel with the idea of weapons stockpiling, except in this case, the weapons are living, breathing individuals. In which case, they might as well be *soldiers* first and foremost, rather than than *human beings* (in the sense of having feelings, emotions, neuroses). For all of the Ultimates' otherworldly abilities, they feel a heckuva lot more human than the ostensibly more 'normal' Reserves.

It reminds me of the differences between the diverse, unpredictable, and independent Justice League Unilimited members, from the cartoon, and their government-sponsored rivals, the Ultimen, who are ostensibly just reckless, clone-able cannon-fodder. (In fact, there are quite a number of superficial similarities between the Reserves and the Ultimen, if you really think about it.)

 

[Tenyuki]

I strongly believe Quicksilver and, perhaps, the Scarlet Witch are involved, whether they're involved with the traitor, or were involved in helping Hawkeye to safety. There has to be a reason as to why Millar would write in how Wanda left her bag at their house, other than to fool us as to who was at the door.

 

[Ultimates]

Sorry, didnt have time to say more earlier. I still cant believe no one picked up on Loki being there I was bored at work (call center) so I started fine combing every page, and there he was

 

[Rawb]

Ack callcenter. I feel your pain. I'm at one too
I still can't believe I didn't notice it, but sure enough that slimey jerk is there amongst shield. Supreme intelligence indeed.

 

[compound]

at the risk of going off-topic...

That makes three of us working at contact centers! (Am working too, at the moment -- it's the night shift, because we service US-based outbound clients.) Maybe I oughta start a separate thread, just to see how many UC regulars are call center employees.

 

[SeAcoW]

I just finished the issue. It was pretty good, but not as impressiv as the ultimates have to be.

 

[E]

Ok?!?!?!?!? I Cant Believe No One Else Has Noticed This Yet?!?!? Perhaps No One Even Looked Like Cap In The First Place!!!

Look At Page 8 Or 9, And Look Close While The Team Is There At Hawkeye's......loki Is In The Background!!! Hahahaha

No way...I didn't notice. I'll look at that again more closely when I get a chance.

 

[MoS]

I dunno, it's getting to the point where we see Loki in any guy on-panel with longish black hair. Plus, Fury KNOWS what Gunnar looks like, you don't think he'd notice that Gunnar was somehow involved in a SHIELD op? Unless only WE see through Loki's disguise, via the magic of Hitch's art, and everyone on site sees whomever Loki is masquerading as.

Doesn't that seem... a tad complicated?

 

[Ultimates]

Nope, not complicated at all. But u have to think man, they arent gonna randomly put a guy in the picture who looks JUST like Loki, it was just be bad on Hitch's part....and NOTHING is bad on Hitch's part
Seriously though, look at him, its obvious the angles he is in in those two pictures, he was put there for a reason. they could have put any of the other SHIELD agents there, yet Hitch decides to make an agent who looks JUST like Loki???
But I do think you brought up a good point. Perhaps we see Loki how he really looks, and to them he looks different every time. Orr......maybe just the fact that he can reshape reality, he made them remember a different "Gunnar". I mean, wouldnt Brian Braddock's father be like "wait a minute, i dont remember this guy on my team, or any of these other scientists that supposively worked on the Thor design!!!"
Also, one of my gripes....why does Fury just assume that Cap isnt really Cap, instead of thinking he is the real Cap, just gone bad. I mean, as that guy states they put a PINT of tetrotoxin into him, yet he is still able to fight like that? Or even better, how u explain a normal man ripping a tombstone like that??? And does Fury also think Tony was involved in a fake cap?
.... I guess it just doesnt make sense to me why Fury would turn on Rogers like that, yea, his good friend was "killed", but shouldnt he be a little bit more logical than that??
Also, where did these other Reserves come from??? Also, I wanted to hesitate on saying this, because then someone could say my Loki theory is wrong, but was it just me, or did one of those reserves look JUST like Lieberman??? Maybe Fury faked his death, so that he could use him for his grander plans....?? I dont know, just my random thoughts!

 

[Tenyuki]

No way...I didn't notice. I'll look at that again more closely when I get a chance.

Yeah, I still don't see him.

 

[Seldes Katne]

There's a person with short dark hair in several of the panels during the investigation at Hawkeye's home. I can't tell what gender this person is, as s/he is wearing the zipped up jackets that all the other S.H.I.E.L.D. personnel are sporting. (Check panels at the very top and bottom of page 6, and the second to last panel on page 7. I'm not counting the title/summary page or the ads in my page numbers.) We only get side and over-the-ear shots of this person, which leads me to agree with Rhyo that we've now reached the point where anyone in this title who has short black hair and isn't Janet Pym is going to be dubbed "Loki".

I'm really looking forward to the end of this whole "traitor" theme.

 

[Hawkeye101]

I don't remember YJ joining the masters of evil. Around what issues were they? I remember in the late 220's that he was FORCED to join the masters of evil by egghead then single handedly took them all down (go Hank Pym!).

Well, there was a yellowjacket before Hank became yellow jacket. It was a she, and I think she was Janet Pym's rivel or something. Once that YJ was done, Hank dawned the outfit that allowed him to fly, and became YJ.

As for the Ultimates Splitting from SHIELD, it is a possibility, but they won't be called the Avengers. Ultimates, as I said before, just works better. However, Loeb DID say that his arcs would be more super-hero-ey than Millar's military based stories. AND Tony was claering out that once place at the end of the first Ultimates Arc. You know where he had invited Cap, Thor and the Pyms. That could very well become the Avenger's Mansion.

Next, there is no way Hawkeye is the traitor. The guy is what you've all described him, a family man and stuff. He's got no powers (or yet to be described). He wouldn't murder his family. I don't know, but the way he totally freaked when Cullam dies in his arms, no ****ing way. Some of you might take this as 'the Hawkeye fan is in denial" but seriously, I know my super-hero better than myself probably, and I KNOW, Ultimate or Otherwise, Hawk is a cool cat and was the least deserving of what he got as opposed to the others. The man phoned his girlfriend/wife and kids before every mission to say goodbuy to them. That doesn't sound like the man who would murder his family for some extreame-liberal political stance.

 

[Guijllons]

So, it is Fury after all. I KNEW IT!

 

[Hawkeye101]

So, it is Fury after all. I KNEW IT!

What? Where did you get this?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

So, it is Fury after all. I KNEW IT!

Here he goes with his anti-American spiels.

I'm with Rhyo and Seldes I remember looking at people and thinking maybe that's Loki. I'm also supporting the fact it's not Loki because I'd rather die than see Loki involved in the death of Hawkeye's family. If the guys a god he should give to ****s about what's going on right now as long as Thor's locked up he should be out of the picture.

 

[Guijllons]

What? Where did you get this?

Nah, just bored to tears with the whole traitor thing. I haven't even read the issue yet and since there is no big reveal then i don't know if I could be bothered to. Talk about dragging out an idea.

Here he goes with his anti-American spiels.

What the **** are you on about now?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Nah, just bored to tears with the whole traitor thing. I haven't even read the issue yet and since there is no big reveal then i don't know if I could be bothered to. Talk about dragging out an idea.

Seconded.

What the **** are you on about now?

Yikes! :shock: I was just messin' around. You know I have nothing but love for you my Anti-American communist friend

 

[DIrishB]

Someone posted in one of the previous threads about Quicksilver and the importance of his speed and all of that. I think that he came in and saved Hawkeye before the traitor shot him.

Yeah, that was my theory. It might still prove true.

And, if you guys remember, Fury asked to roll the tapes between specific times. So it could be implied that the traitor/Hawkeye showdown could have happened after the times Fury asked for.

But, ummm, they wouldn't know to go after Cap if that was the case.

Nah, just bored to tears with the whole traitor thing. I haven't even read the issue yet and since there is no big reveal then i don't know if I could be bothered to. Talk about dragging out an idea.

Unless the only reason you're reading this book is to find out the traitor's identity. #8 was really a good issue, it was just somewhat falsley and definitly over-hyped.

 

[moonmaster]

So, it is Fury after all. I KNEW IT!

[GUIJ VOICE] :roll: I'll say it again: THE TRAITOR ISN'T BLACK.[/GUIJ VOICE]

Oh, and it isn't Loki. It's just a dude with black hair. His hair isn't even similar. I'm pretty sure his face is totally different too. It ain't Loki.

 

[DIrishB]

[GUIJ VOICE] :roll: I'll say it again: THE TRAITOR ISN'T BLACK.[/GUIJ VOICE]

Oh, and it isn't Loki. It's just a dude with black hair. His hair isn't even similar. I'm pretty sure his face is totally different too. It ain't Loki.

Yeah that isn't Loki its Ultimate Scott Baio.

 

[iceman]

i was actually pretty upset that ultimate scott baio wasn't somehow changed from 616 scott baio

 

[moonmaster]

Yeah that isn't Loki its Ultimate Scott Baio.

Today is Scott Baio's birthday.

FACT.

I was actually pretty upset that ultimate scott baio wasn't somehow changed from 616 scott baio

Second Post of the Day.

 

[DIrishB]

i was actually pretty upset that ultimate scott baio wasn't somehow changed from 616 scott baio

He is. Ultimate Scott Baio played the Fonzy on Unhappy Days, instead of playing Chachi on Happy Days like 616 Scott Baio did. He then became a heavy drug user during the Ultimate 80's, but cleaned himself up, went to school for CSI training, and joined SHIELD to find out just whatever happened to Ultimate Ron Howard, who also became a heavy drug user after the show's end and became homeless, going by the hobo name Opie.

 

[iceman]

oh, but that all happened in the 616 universe, its just that the government is removing it from our memories. it's all a big part of a global diet pill pyramid scheme.

 

[moonmaster]

He is. Ultimate Scott Baio played the Fonzy on Unhappy Days, instead of playing Chachi on Happy Days like 616 Scott Baio did. He then became a heavy drug user during the Ultimate 80's, but cleaned himself up, went to school for CSI training, and joined SHIELD to find out just whatever happened to Ultimate Ron Howard, who also became a heavy drug user after the show's end and became homeless, going by the hobo name Opie.

Third Post of the Day.

Except you forgot about his brain body.