Ultimates 2 #8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[DIrishB]

I don't trust the list we were given. Like I said, Just because they had a write up doesn't mean they will or will not be there when Vol. 3 starts up.

I'm also willing to bet that even when a scapegoat is revealed that the traitor walks away free as a bird by the arcs end.

Exactly, lets not forget Hulk was included in that, and after killing 800+ people its kind of tough to justify putting him on any team but one made up of villains.

So Fury now thinks Rogers and Stark were in it together?

Thats how I took it. Fury said something like "You must have thought I was stupid, Tony finding you in that block of ice. So convenient" something along those lines. Seemed to me he was including Tony in the whole conspiracy thing. Course, he's just incredibly pissed his friend Hawkeye and his family are dead...though Hawkeye's body wasn't there, so I think thats more evidence that for some reason he was kept alive.

 

[MoS]

Interesting that both Fury and Cap get "nice guy" moments in this issue. I don't think it's to throw us off, I think it's to remind us that neither of them are the central villains here. My current line of thinking is that there are at least three separate camps involved here - Tony setting up a non-SHIELD based program, a radical group inside of SHIELD/military and an outside group, and that's why the clues are so mixed.

I hate nitpicking, but someone offer me an explanation for this - if SHIELD can watch the tapes and see the death of Hawkeye's family and that it was "Cap" involved, why don't they know what happened to Hawkeye?

 

[SeAcoW]

I hate nitpicking, but someone offer me an explanation for this - if SHIELD can watch the tapes and see the death of Hawkeye's family and that it was "Cap" involved, why don't they know what happened to Hawkeye?

Heh, I was thinking just the same thing. But well, i don't have the issue so I thought that there would be some explanation for it. There really isn't huh.

 

[Rawb]

I know it goes without saying, but it's not Cap. I am disappointed not to discover who the true traitor is, but it was an amazing nonetheless.

Let me say, before this issue I actually really disliked Captain America. I thought he was cool enough, but he seemed like a hotheaded jerk for the most part. But this issue showed me that he is really just a lonely guy and in the 616 that was lost amongst the stereotypical superhero stuff. Cap was far less human in 616 then the ultimate one, even though the ultimate one is a genetically enhanced human the 616 is a "peak" human. I don't want to drone off on that but i really felt bad for Cap in this issue. It was a nice feeling to find respect for a character after badmouthing him for so long. And he beat up my favorite character- even though he deserved it. (and okay, i admit it, it was awesome.)

Jan going back to hank wasn't that big of a surprise. She always does in 616, so it's not a shock to see her go back again. I was a little surprised he brushed her off like that, but I don't blame him since what was on the tv was pretty huge news.

Hawkeye101 I believe was the one who suggested Hank as yellowjacket being the traitor. In all honesty, i think that'd be incredibly awesome - mind you it'd have to be impossible. Unless the person in his apartment was simply a hallucionation. That leads me to wonder if the cap costume wasn't arbitrarily thrown in there... maybe Hank... nooo.

At any rate, I would kind of like to see t he ultimates break from SHIELD. I love the concept of fury and stuff, but I just think they're too powerful. It seems almost impossible from them to break off from shield and be their own team because as far as Fury would be concerned it'd be illegal. Illegal mutations and so forth, and I don't think he'd just let them go loose. In order for that to work something major has to happen to bring SHIELD down, and during this arc is the best time to do it. I just really think they're too powerful in it. They know way too much. And let's get real here, they can't take spideys powers away and the kid has to age someday. Do you really think they're going to have a spidey series going on when he is "owned" by the government? Peter wakes up, goes to the office, has a drink from the watercooler and waits to go out to fight crime? He's way too free spirited.

Er anyways, I am rambling. The last fight was sweet, Cap impressed me yet again. Man, that guy can fight. The reserves look kind of like wankers but I liked it nonetheless.

I'd give it a 5/5 because it really was a well written issue.

 

[14rdb]

It seems almost impossible from them to break off from shield and be their own team because as far as Fury would be concerned it'd be illegal.

But if Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor collectively decide to do something, good luck stopping them.

I think a lot of interesting stories could be written about the relationship between an independent Avengers team and S.H.I.E.L.D. with their new squad of Ultimates. They would be major rivals -- perhaps even enemies in some ways -- and yet they would have a lot of common goals. S.H.I.E.L.D. is basically working in defence of the USA and the planet, something the Ultimate Avengers would be doing as well, but their politics and methods would likely be very different.

Sometimes they would clash, sometimes they would be forced to interact and work together, etc.

 

[SeAcoW]

But if Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor collectively decide to do something, good luck stopping them.

I think a lot of interesting stories could be written about the relationship between an independent Avengers team and S.H.I.E.L.D. with their new squad of Ultimates. They would be major rivals -- perhaps even enemies in some ways -- and yet they would have a lot of common goals. S.H.I.E.L.D. is basically working in defence of the USA and the planet, something the Ultimate Avengers would be doing as well, but their politics and methods would likely be very different.

Sometimes they would clash, sometimes they would be forced to interact and work together, etc.

The reserves would be the US's new *****es.

 

[Tenyuki]

Someone posted in one of the previous threads about Quicksilver and the importance of his speed and all of that. I think that he came in and saved Hawkeye before the traitor shot him.

And, if you guys remember, Fury asked to roll the tapes between specific times. So it could be implied that the traitor/Hawkeye showdown could have happened after the times Fury asked for.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Here's what I've been thinkin' about.

I really don't like The Ultimates seperating from SHIELD and I'm hopeing Fury's not being mentioned was just a throw off to have us think that's what's happening.

But I guess it is going to happen. I don't know what the reason is. Fury didn't look like the traitor and once Cap finds out why they're after him, I'm sure he can forgive him. So why is Fury out of the picture and why do The Ultimates leave the team? What happens to SHIELD then?

I think the traitor regardless of who it is is tied in with the super-humans. This is going to cause Fury to submit and dissasembled his entire supersoldier program. Possibly The Ultimates are givin' the boot because of who they are and Stark keeps them together.

Either way in 4 issues Millar has to work out a lot of relationships between members, the characters going from big time celebrities to actual heroes with possible bad relationship with their nation's government, and a reason The Ultimates are still around even if SHIELD keeps The reserves running.

It's all really a big mess to me and this past issue of revealing nothing kind of ticks me off. I'm sure Millar makes it all work by then end but it should be interesting.

 

[jtg3885]

Loki can ressurect Lieberman (comon, there's gotta be a reason for this character. And the German name? This screams RED SKULL to me)

Wasn't Joe Lieberman the Jewish guy who was some Democrat's vice presidential candidate either in the last primary or the one before it? Doubt there's many Jews that'd join up somehow in anything Nazi related... and we're of course assuming the Red Skull is still German this time around. Lieberman the Corpse's purpose was to show that Fury still has the serum that created Captain America, but it doesn't work right on anyone else.

Red Skull = Islamic?

Or do you think that's too big of a controversial move, even for Millar?

 

[Rawb]

Yes issue doesn't reveal much but it is still a good story nonetheless with a lot happening. (Not that I'm saying you said it's a bad issue or anything.)

At anyrate how can it be ultron or the redskull if they were never part of the ultimates (unless they were ( >.> ))? I mean in order to be a traitor to the team they'd have to be part of the team. Only reason I mentioned that is because I recall someone else suggesting that.

 

[compound]

Someone posted in one of the previous threads about Quicksilver and the importance of his speed and all of that. I think that he came in and saved Hawkeye before the traitor shot him.

It may not have happened that way exactly, but the idea of Quicksilver being somehow related to Hawkeye's disappearance -- and presumed transport to a 'secure location' -- make a lot of sense, especially when you consider that all those seemingly throw-away lines about "slowing down the sattellite footage" might actually be for real.

Also, thanks to the "Magnetic North" arc in UltXM, we now have positive confirmation about Wanda's reality-warping abilites, so that could have a very strategic/militaristic/un-magick-al application, in relation to Hawkeye's disappearance. (Granted, she was meant to be piss-drunk and/or hung-over at the time, but we know they were definitely in the vicinity of Hawkeye's residence, not long before the attack.)

 

[14rdb]

Fury didn't look like the traitor and once Cap finds out why they're after him, I'm sure he can forgive him. So why is Fury out of the picture and why do The Ultimates leave the team? What happens to SHIELD then?

Forgive? Maybe. Forget? No way.

Suppose Captain America and Thor are both proven innocent. How could they ever again trust an organization that so quickly turned on them and attacked them so brutally in error? How could they feel safe that it wouldn't happen again in the future?

And the use of the Reserves is making it clear to everyone that the original members aren't needed as they were at the start and they certainly don't fit the 'yes men' mentality of the Reserves.

It's also hard for me to believe that S.H.I.E.L.D. and Fury would want to simply dump their superpowered force. It's already proven itself necessary (saving the world against alien attacks/bringing down the Hulk, etc.) and other nations are building their own superpowered teams. To simply drop it would leave the nation extremely vulnerable.

 

[Tenyuki]

Wasn't Joe Lieberman the Jewish guy who was some Democrat's vice presidential candidate either in the last primary or the one before it?

He was Al Gore's running mate, yeah.

 

[Ultimate Venom]

You know what I got out of Tony's look? "Oh crap, maybe Thor was right.
" So maybe this means he will go and talk to Thor again. Prehaps, do more than talk? It would be a nice way to re-introduce Thor as a character, not just as some loony sitting in a cell.

 

[Tenyuki]

And the use of the Reserves is making it clear to everyone that the original members aren't needed as they were at the start and they certainly don't fit the 'yes men' mentality of the Reserves.

It's also hard for me to believe that S.H.I.E.L.D. and Fury would want to simply dump their superpowered force. It's already proven itself necessary (saving the world against alien attacks/bringing down the Hulk, etc.) and other nations are building their own superpowered teams. To simply drop it would leave the nation extremely vulnerable.

You said it yourself: S.H.I.E.L.D. would drop the Ultimates for the Reserves. The nation wouldn't be vulnerable. Sure, the Reserves probably wouldn't do as good a job as the Ultimates, but they'd be doing the job nonetheless.

I'm not really in a state of mind where I can remember everything that's been going on with the Ultimates, but after all of this "bad publicity" and all of that, wouldn't S.H.I.E.L.D. want to drop the Ultimates and start anew with the Reserves just to save face?

 

[compound]

Red Skull = Islamic?

Or do you think that's too big of a controversial move, even for Millar?

You've got an interesting point there, buddy... He doesn't need to be *explicitly* Islamic... just a fanatically nationalistic Middle Eastern terrorist. (The connotation would be there without really needing to put it into images/words.) After all, the Ulatimes have already made their presence felt in the region, so the *specific*, immediate motivation for revenge would be there, beyond the broader ideological one.

But the 'Red' symbolism alone makes me believe that if Ultimate Red Skull has a different nationality, it would most likely be North Korean, complete with cartoonish Commie trappings, in the same vein as the Chitauri's fascist-kitsch Nazi garb.

 

[Rawb]

But if Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor collectively decide to do something, good luck stopping them.

I think a lot of interesting stories could be written about the relationship between an independent Avengers team and S.H.I.E.L.D. with their new squad of Ultimates. They would be major rivals -- perhaps even enemies in some ways -- and yet they would have a lot of common goals. S.H.I.E.L.D. is basically working in defence of the USA and the planet, something the Ultimate Avengers would be doing as well, but their politics and methods would likely be very different.

Sometimes they would clash, sometimes they would be forced to interact and work together, etc.

Granted, but in the ultimate universe I honestly think SHIELD could. They're simply too powerful and have way too many backups. The 6 giant-men they have is ridiculous. They need to have their powers taken down a notch.

 

[14rdb]

You said it yourself: S.H.I.E.L.D. would drop the Ultimates for the Reserves. The nation wouldn't be vulnerable. Sure, the Reserves probably wouldn't do as good a job as the Ultimates, but they'd be doing the job nonetheless.

I agree. I was just responding to TheManWithoutFear's theory ("This is going to cause Fury to submit and disassembled his entire supersoldier program,").

If they do break ranks and the Reserves are promoted, I'd like to see the ranks of the new Ultimates (the former Reserves) bolstered with some ultimate versions of some classic 616 Avengers (Hercules, Falcon, Captain Marvel, etc. whoever). Also, if Hawkeye is alive, he might chose to stay with S.H.I.E.L.D. as well.

Combined, that could give the new SHIELD superhuman team quite a bit of juice and make them seem legit rather than just a bunch of no-name wannabes.

 

[E]

You know what I got out of Tony's look? "Oh crap, maybe Thor was right.
" So maybe this means he will go and talk to Thor again. Prehaps, do more than talk? It would be a nice way to re-introduce Thor as a character, not just as some loony sitting in a cell.

And a Messiah-like "resurrection".

Oh boy, I'm giddy now.

 

[big danny d]

ya know, i read the first 4 pages, skimmed that last two and not one mention of hawkeye possibly even being the traitor.

im not saying thats what i feel, but its a thought. I honestly want to say tony is the traitor, most signs point to him, and to a lesser extent hank helping him out (remmeber the guys got a cap am outfit he used to play dress up with) but in all honesty, no body means no death.
and if ur going to betray ur country that u've loved and fought for so long to defend, is it far fetched to beleive ur going to betray ur family as well? betray the man you named godfather of one of ur children? hawkeye is someone no one is expecting, hes the quiet guy in the back, the family man, the one whose always saying yes sir, the best friend... HES the one who you never see coming when he attacks you.

I dont know what his motive yet is, as no one does, but to be honest, hes the only one we dont really know too much about, everyone else has motives and reasons just flung out at our faces, but WHAT do we know about hawkeye, what do we KNOW about his family life, his political stance, his ideals... NOTHING

thus the perfect man to be the traitor to surprise us with, also, in a way if he is the traitor, i think the impact that would leave would be 10 fold that of what cap am or iron man being the traitor would do (because we expect them)