Ultimates 2 #8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[14rdb]

The issue really laid the groundwork for a split between S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates (Ultimate Avengers) at the conclusion of Millar's run.

Fury no longer has faith in the big three (Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor) and isn't too fond of any of the others either. Tony Stark is busy designing and building technology independently that has the U.S. govt. nervous. For one of the biggest missions imaginable, Fury decides to go with the Reserves instead of the Ultimates, and they (the Reserves) better fit Fury's desire for a superpowered military team anyway.

Even if Steve Rogers is proven innocent (which you have to assume will be the case), too much has taken place for the Ultimates to simply reunite with Fury under S.H.I.E.L.D. command at this point.

 

[Lynx]

The issue really laid the groundwork for a split between S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates (Ultimate Avengers) at the conclusion of Millar's run.

Fury no longer has faith in the big three (Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor) and isn't too fond of any of the others either. Tony Stark is busy designing and building technology independently that has the U.S. govt. nervous. For one of the biggest missions imaginable, Fury decides to go with the Reserves instead of the Ultimates, and they (the Reserves) better fit Fury's desire for a superpowered military team anyway.

Even if Steve Rogers is proven innocent (which you have to assume will be the case), too much has taken place for the Ultimates to simply reunite with Fury under S.H.I.E.L.D. command at this point.

Completely setting the stage for Loeb/Mad's run. I wonder if they'll actually retitle it "Ultimate Avengers" if this happens?

 

[14rdb]

Completely setting the stage for Loeb/Mad's run. I wonder if they'll actually retitle it "Ultimate Avengers" if this happens?

If the split does happen, I really doubt it for marketing reasons. But in many ways, it would make more sense if they became the Avengers and the Reserves became the Ultimates.

 

[moonmaster]

You're taking it a bit too seriously. First when I post "idiot" over a messageboard site I don't type away with a red face and steam blowing out my ears. It's the internet. It's comic books. Think more in the line of a Napolean Dynamite attitude.

To be fair, your not the kind of person who call people idiots jokingly. :lol:




And you might wanna get that sand outta your vagina, too.

On to the issue.

-Cap was set up.

-Loki's powers might've had something to do with it. It would explain why everyone's so blindly excepting the idea that Cap isn't really Cap, despite the fact that it makes no ****ing sense whatsoever. Where did he get his powers? I thought no one had been able to duplicate the serum? And the whole idea that they froze "Cap" to make it look like he'd been preserved? :roll: He was set up.

-I'm thinking that Tony is the traitor and he set up Cap. (For some reason I found his expression when he heard the news unsettling...like he knew it was coming...)

-And how would they fake the tapes? Maybe there's was a very specific reason why the traitor met with Hank. Maybe his androids can be given life like skins.

-And I for one liked the issue. Not as much as others, but I liked it.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

-Loki's powers might've had something to do with it. It would explain why everyone's so blindly excepting the idea that Cap isn't really Cap, despite the fact that it makes no ****ing sense whatsoever. Where did he get his powers? I thought no one had been able to duplicate the serum? And the whole idea that they froze "Cap" to make it look like he'd been preserved? :roll: He was set up.

I'm having a hard time thinking that Captain America is the traitor, it just doesn't fit with his character... And Steve would have been expecting an ambush if he had done it.

Theories:

Chitauri/Skrull Shapeshifter = Red Skull (blecch. I want RS to be human)

Hologram Body = Ultron

... I dunno. I wanted some more answers, but I still don't think Captain is the bad guy... Unless he's already been captured and replaced, by the Red Skull.

-I'm thinking that Tony is the traitor and he set up Cap. (For some reason I found his expression when he heard the news unsettling...like he knew it was coming...)

I think he did know, but I don't think he's a traitor. I think he sees where everything is going because he's the smartest guy on the team... He's ready for a Privately Financed Superhero team, with no ties to the US government, and I gaurentee he's been working towards this ever since Thor mentioned there being a Traitor. Even if he was skeptical, he wouldn't have let it sit, he would have looked into it.

I'm expecting a Thor Escape during Tony's Wedding, because who else is going to be Best Man?

 

[PChmura]

I hate to say it, but Jan is still a possibility. She spent 4 hours in Hank's apartment and Hank did have the captain america uniform. Plus, she didn't seem surprised at the press conference.

 

[DIrishB]

The issue really laid the groundwork for a split between S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates (Ultimate Avengers) at the conclusion of Millar's run.

Fury no longer has faith in the big three (Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor) and isn't too fond of any of the others either. Tony Stark is busy designing and building technology independently that has the U.S. govt. nervous. For one of the biggest missions imaginable, Fury decides to go with the Reserves instead of the Ultimates, and they (the Reserves) better fit Fury's desire for a superpowered military team anyway.

Even if Steve Rogers is proven innocent (which you have to assume will be the case), too much has taken place for the Ultimates to simply reunite with Fury under S.H.I.E.L.D. command at this point.

Excellent points.

Completely setting the stage for Loeb/Mad's run. I wonder if they'll actually retitle it "Ultimate Avengers" if this happens?

With the animated movie coming out in February (a few months before this arc wraps up), it seems like a likely possibility to me. Marketing wise, as 14rdb stated, I think people will still get that its the same team. I would actually like to see this.

To be fair, your not the kind of person who call people idiots jokingly.




And you might wanna get that sand outta your vagina, too.

:lol:

On to the issue.

-Cap was set up.

-Loki's powers might've had something to do with it. It would explain why everyone's so blindly excepting the idea that Cap isn't really Cap, despite the fact that it makes no ****ing sense whatsoever. Where did he get his powers? I thought no one had been able to duplicate the serum? And the whole idea that they froze "Cap" to make it look like he'd been preserved? He was set up.

-I'm thinking that Tony is the traitor and he set up Cap. (For some reason I found his expression when he heard the news unsettling...like he knew it was coming...)

-And how would they fake the tapes? Maybe there's was a very specific reason why the traitor met with Hank. Maybe his androids can be given life like skins.

-And I for one liked the issue. Not as much as others, but I liked it.

Also good points. Tony as the traitor is a definite possibility. As far as he knows he's dying sometime soon, so maybe he feels he's got nothing to lose, but much to gain (well, in a weird sense of justifying his actions). Or it could all be Loki's doing, which seems the most likely given his reality-warping powers. Perhaps Thor is really a god, but Loki, using his powers, made it so that his powers are totally dependant on the suit he supposedly stole. Hopefully by the end of the arc Thor will shove Mjolnir up Loki's *** so far the handle is sticking out his mouth.

As for the issue, it was a good issue, just disappointing. But this is only because we all expected the definitive answer on who the traitor was, something we didn't get. Now the solicit didn't necessarily lie, as right now as far as we know Cap is the traitor (even though he isn't). Its just more of Millar playing games with the readers, like he did with the hype for Crossover. This guy is a master of turning hype on its head, something I have to respect. The issue itself was a great read, gave a lot of insight into Cap's misplacement in our time, in Fury's anger over Hawkeye's (apparent) death and that of his family. Also showed just how close Hawkeye and Fury were (him being his daugher's god-daughter and getting her name tattooed on his arm). I can't say this issue wasn't good, because it really was. Somewhat melodramatic, sure, but it was justified. God, two months till #9 is going to be another looooooong wait.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I'm having a hard time thinking that Captain America is the traitor, it just doesn't fit with his character... And Steve would have been expecting an ambush if he had done it.

Theories:

Chitauri/Skrull Shapeshifter = Red Skull (blecch. I want RS to be human)

Hologram Body = Ultron

... I dunno. I wanted some more answers, but I still don't think Captain is the bad guy... Unless he's already been captured and replaced, by the Red Skull.



I think he did know, but I don't think he's a traitor. I think he sees where everything is going because he's the smartest guy on the team... He's ready for a Privately Financed Superhero team, with no ties to the US government, and I gaurentee he's been working towards this ever since Thor mentioned there being a Traitor. Even if he was skeptical, he wouldn't have let it sit, he would have looked into it.

I'm expecting a Thor Escape during Tony's Wedding, because who else is going to be Best Man?

If I was gay, I'd ask you to marry me right now Doc! You're ****ing brilliant and so reasonable! Hologram Body = Ultron? BRILLIANT!!

The Tony being ready to fund his own team! Brilliant!

5/5


Oh yeah, Let's talk about everyone referring to the future and Loeb's roster. Everyone wants to explain things so I want someone to tackle this since it's being avoided. Hank Pym and Captain America on the same team again? Hank's still working with the traitor. Granted I think he's working with him blindly and doesn't know everything that's going on but there's no way the two are gonna be bedfellows right away. So how's that for a wrench in your cogs and wheels?

 

[marvelman]

OK, here's how I see it:

Tony Stark:

Anyone notice how his eyes in issues 7 & 8 have changed from blue to brown? I sure have.
Anyways, I think Tony has SOMETHING to do with this, whether it is really tony, or even if the team has been replaced by doppelgangers.

Cap:

I seriously think he was set up. He didn't know anything. And I hope to god he isn't dead (he shouldn't be).

Loki:

Here's where everything comes together: Let's assume Stark wants to take control of the US, or even just Loki wants to cause some havok. Now, I think we all believe that Loki can shapeshift (little boy, issue 7). Now, lets assume these things:
Loki shapeshifted into Cap and killed Hawkeye's family.
Loki altered reality to make it so that everyone thinks that Cap isn't Cap
Loki is posing as Stark (hence the eye color change)
Loki can ressurect Lieberman (comon, there's gotta be a reason for this character. And the German name? This screams RED SKULL to me)

I think this is just Loki behind it all, maybe (but probably not) working with Stark. Who is the traitor then? Whoever Loki wants to be. It's all a game to him.



And Millar was right. We didn't guess this, that Cap isn't Cap. But I think Loki is behind it and Fury is being played with. This will give cause for the Ultimates to Avenge all the wrong Loki is doing.

 

[Pandrio]

Loki can ressurect Lieberman (comon, there's gotta be a reason for this character. And the German name? This screams RED SKULL to me).

Just don't tell MWOF. :lol:

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

its not going to be Lieberman...

That makes the Annual -too- crucial to the storyline, they dont have time in the last four issues to recap his background...

 

[Ultimates]

As much as I dont wanna think it is Jan, that comment at the beginning DOES hold some ground.... when and WHY was she in Hank's apartment?? How about when he was in his apartment with the traitor?

 

[compound]

Think about it in Watchmen terms...

*** Watchmen spoilers follow ***







The traitor has neutrialized the God-like figure (Thor in U2; Doc Manhattan in Watchmen); disgraced the warrior/soldier (Cap in U2; Comedian in Watchmen); alienated the insecure guy who relies on his costume and inventions for his strength (Pym in U2; Nite Owl in Watchmen)...

Okay, so they're not one-to-one correspondances, but the resonance is there...

And the bottom line is: who is the Ozymandias/Veidt-like figure with all the money, brains, and resources to pull this off? Who has the well-intentioned but potentially megalomaniacal Master Plan?

If we see a faked attempt on Tony's life during the wedding, resulting in the death of his lady-companion, during the next issue, it will just seal the deal, in my opinion.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Well Compoud, those are some good thoughts. But Millar's gonna catch some heat if it's just The Watchmen all over again.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Well Compoud, those are some good thoughts. But Millar's gonna catch some heat if it's just The Watchmen all over again.

Yeah, people have been drawing enough lines between them as it is (simply for it being a serious, dark Superhero book)

 

[Hawkeye101]

Think about it in Watchmen terms...

*** Watchmen spoilers follow ***







The traitor has neutrialized the God-like figure (Thor in U2; Doc Manhattan in Watchmen); disgraced the warrior/soldier (Cap in U2; Comedian in Watchmen); alienated the insecure guy who relies on his costume and inventions for his strength (Pym in U2; Nite Owl in Watchmen)...

Okay, so they're not one-to-one correspondances, but the resonance is there...

And the bottom line is: who is the Ozymandias/Veidt-like figure with all the money, brains, and resources to pull this off? Who has the well-intentioned but potentially megalomaniacal Master Plan?

If we see a faked attempt on Tony's life during the wedding, resulting in the death of his lady-companion, during the next issue, it will just seal the deal, in my opinion.

Holy ****ing crap! Natasha is going to get shot! No! Watchmen, you are a guinus. As much as I ahte to admit it, you are so ****ing right! Every other Ultimates Arc has copied some other story (if not pieces have been fitted together). Exaple 1: The Matrix. Hawkeye in "The Experts" was a Matrix Copy. The Alien invasion fight was a Independance Day knock off. The Hulk incursion was a King Kong likeness. The trail of the Hulk follows the Hulk TV show when Daredevil was his lawyer, and going after Thor is a Christ at the Garden of Gethsemanie re-enactment.

 

[DIrishB]

Holy ****ing crap! Natasha is going to get shot! No! Watchmen, you are a guinus. As much as I ahte to admit it, you are so ****ing right! Every other Ultimates Arc has copied some other story (if not pieces have been fitted together). Exaple 1: The Matrix. Hawkeye in "The Experts" was a Matrix Copy. The Alien invasion fight was a Independance Day knock off. The Hulk incursion was a King Kong likeness. The trail of the Hulk follows the Hulk TV show when Daredevil was his lawyer, and going after Thor is a Christ at the Garden of Gethsemanie re-enactment.

:? Ummm, ok.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Holy ****ing crap! Natasha is going to get shot! No! Watchmen, you are a guinus. As much as I ahte to admit it, you are so ****ing right! Every other Ultimates Arc has copied some other story (if not pieces have been fitted together). Exaple 1: The Matrix. Hawkeye in "The Experts" was a Matrix Copy. The Alien invasion fight was a Independance Day knock off. The Hulk incursion was a King Kong likeness. The trail of the Hulk follows the Hulk TV show when Daredevil was his lawyer, and going after Thor is a Christ at the Garden of Gethsemanie re-enactment.

I mean, don't you remember the part where Iron Man knocked King Kong into the Grand Central Station? And when he was trying to get onto that helicopter?

or when Hawkeye learned how to fly into the Skrulls to make them explode.

or when Thor flew his plane into the eye of the spaceship, to destroy it?

You see, they took influences from those stories, with this Watchmen Idea, he'd be blatantly ripping off the entire story. That's illegal.

 

[DIrishB]

I mean, don't you remember the part where Iron Man knocked King Kong into the Grand Central Station? And when he was trying to get onto that helicopter?

or when Hawkeye learned how to fly into the Skrulls to make them explode.

or when Thor flew his plane into the eye of the spaceship, to destroy it?

You see, they took influences from those stories, with this Watchmen Idea, he'd be blatantly ripping off the entire story. That's illegal.

:lol:

 

[compound]

You see, they took influences from those stories, with this Watchmen Idea, he'd be blatantly ripping off the entire story. That's illegal.

No, he wouldn't -- they'd just be very similar in structure and themes. The specific plot details are completely different.

Besides, Watchmen is largely defined by its grim ending -- I suspect that U2 will end on a more tragic-but-upbeat Hollywood disaster movie kind of way, in keeping with most of the references that Hawkeye101 pointed out. A huge mess, surely, but one that inspires a glimmer of hope, in the post-9/11/tsunami/Katrina kind of way.

 

[DIrishB]

No, he wouldn't -- they'd just be very similar in structure and themes. The specific plot details are completely different.

Besides, Watchmen is largely defined by its grim ending -- I suspect that U2 will end on a more tragic-but-upbeat Hollywood disaster movie kind of way, in keeping with most of the references that Hawkeye101 pointed out. A huge mess, surely, but one that inspires a glimmer of hope, in the post-9/11/tsunami/Katrina kind of way.

Don't forget in a post-Ultimate Iron Man kind of way as well, as thats the definitive example of a tragically bad story, whose ending (as in the series ending itself, not the actual ending of the mini) will be a forest fire of hope.

 

[Terraneaux]

It's hella Jan.... who else would be close enough to cap to set him up like that. Or of course Loki could be impersonating Jan, which would be even more convoluted.

 

[iceman]

i think millar's strategy is writing a general course of events, releasing a cliff hanger issue, seeing what fans think is going to happen, and if they're right, delay the issue a month or two and use the time to change it to something not as good or sensical.

 

[Hawkeye101]

i think millar's strategy is writing a general course of events, releasing a cliff hanger issue, seeing what fans think is going to happen, and if they're right, delay the issue a month or two and use the time to change it to something not as good or sensical.

I thought that's why it was taking so long too.

 

[ProjectX2]

So Fury now thinks Rogers and Stark were in it together?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

So Fury now thinks Rogers and Stark were in it together?

That's not what I got out of it. Just Captain America and his rant suggests that he's not even the "Real" Captain America.

 

[E]

That's not what I got out of it. Just Captain America and his rant suggests that he's not even the "Real" Captain America.

That's how I understood it too. And that could be where the Annual comes it, which supposedly has a major clue about the traitor. There were some failed Cap remakes...who knows.

I knew, knew, knew, knew the traitor wouldn't be revealed in this issue. I knew it. There's still 4 issues left in the series. You guys are soooo gullible.

It seems obvious to me that it's not Cap OR Tony. Not intentionally, anyway. If it is, they are being framed. I like the idea put forth earlier in the thread about Tony looking like he's getting ready for a team to break away from SHIELD. I don't really want that, but it's a good theory.

Loved the bit about the kid being Fury's godchild. Nice touch.

The art was fab and the "little things" made this book great.

4/5 because I'm not bitter about the no reveal and because he fooled you guys.

 

[E]

Oh yeah - and I'm loving the Watchmen parallel compound suggested.

 

[Lynx]

It's very possible Natahsa might get shot, but she's definetly not going to die. She's in Ultimates III. And the more I think about, the more I like Tony being the Traitor. I dunno, it just seems to fit.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I don't trust the list we were given. Like I said, Just because they had a write up doesn't mean they will or will not be there when Vol. 3 starts up.

I'm also willing to bet that even when a scapegoat is revealed that the traitor walks away free as a bird by the arcs end.