Watchmen (Spoilers)

Well, I think if you look closer, tragic heroes are, despite their nobilities, always the reason for their own downfall. In Oedipus Rex's case, it was pride.
 
Tragedy does really have to be the protagonists fault. It helps a little but it's not always the case. Let's look at comics. Batman, Daredevil, Captain America? Batman isn't the reason his parents died. Daredevil isn't the reason his father died, Captain America isn't the reason he was frozen and lost everything he loved. But it could be argued that because they've taken on these hero persona's that trouble has found them. But it's not like they had so much pride that Karen Page was killed. The greeks loved their flawed characters but a tragedy definitely doesn't mean the hero brought it on himself.

Gatsby was killed because Tom Buchanan was sleepin' around. He was just a victim of circumstance.
 
I'm referring specifically to the story genre. I think when most people refer to "tragedy" they think of the Greek or Shakespeare plays that always end in a negative way due to the protagonist getting exactly what they want. Tragedies aren't just "bad things happen to the main character". It's sad, it's unfortunate, but it isn't tragic. Tragedies are heavy in irony, with the downfall caused by the protagonist's "tragic flaw" (which strangely enough always seems to be their inability to back down from their desires even though they know it will destroy them - that sense of self-awareness is also important).

It's worth noting that the ending is not the only convention of the tragedy, nor is the self-aware ruthless obsession. The tragedy has many conventions and some stories possess some of those conventions, but a tragedy possesses and utilises all of them.
 
UltimateE said:
I'll be rereading this to pick up on anything I might have missed. In the meantime, if anyone knows of a site that reviews this series in detail (perhaps an annotated Watchmen article?) that can share I'd appreciate it.
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Try these out E, some interesting stuff to be found.

Doug Atkinson Watchmen Annotations
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~wald/watchmen-index.html

Ralf Hildebrant Watchmen Annotations
http://www.stahl.bau.tu-bs.de/~hildeb/watchmen/

The Watchmen Bench
http://www.kofightclub.com/thebench_watchmen.html
 
Entropy - that was EXACTLY what I was looking for. Many thanks.
 
I got this Graphic Novel this weekend and read it all. One of the greatest novels I have ever read. I noticed something while reading it though.
I knew that Blake was Laurie's father after we learned he raped Laurie's mother. Also I knew that Veidt was gonna be the bad guy in the end.
The book was still awesome even though I knew he was the bad guy the way he went about doing it was so despicable. But I suppose it had to be done...................................I wish sometime someone would write a comic I didn't know what was gonna happen next.
 
Ultimate Gambit said:
I got this Graphic Novel this weekend and read it all. One of the greatest novels I have ever read. I noticed something while reading it though.
I knew that Blake was Laurie's father after we learned he raped Laurie's mother. Also I knew that Veidt was gonna be the bad guy in the end.
The book was still awesome even though I knew he was the bad guy the way he went about doing it was so despicable. But I suppose it had to be done...................................I wish sometime someone would write a comic I didn't know what was gonna happen next.
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I think not knowing what happens next is part of the appeal, the Watchmen are anti-heroes, having their flaw or success crystalised would negate the ending had.

And the so called 'plot twists' weren't really twists per-se, I think they were just laid out as definition.

But absolutely it's the greatest graphic novel ever written, perfect use of the medium.
 
Ultimate Gambit said:
I got this Graphic Novel this weekend and read it all. One of the greatest novels I have ever read. I noticed something while reading it though.
I knew that Blake was Laurie's father after we learned he raped Laurie's mother. Also I knew that Veidt was gonna be the bad guy in the end.
The book was still awesome even though I knew he was the bad guy the way he went about doing it was so despicable. But I suppose it had to be done...................................I wish sometime someone would write a comic I didn't know what was gonna happen next.
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No need to mark spoilers in this thread.

I thought he didn't rape her; it was a lie...
 
But I do believe he would have raped her either way...

He -is- the embodiment of Vietnam.
 
UltimateE said:
No need to mark spoilers in this thread.

I thought he didn't rape her; it was a lie...
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My, it's been a while but I thought the Comedian only attempted to rape her. He got interrupted by the Hood (I think that was his name).

The disgust of Laurie stems from realizing that despite the fact that the Comedian attempted to rape Silk Spectre, they still got together at a later date and she was conceived presumably in a consensual relationship.

I'll have to brush up on my Watchmen if I'm wrong.

EDIT : While I'm on it, I prefer V for Vendetta from Moore. I loved Watchmen, really did. It is a more polished book than Vendetta. It is better written. It was better conceived and executed more flawlessly. But it just doesn't have the raw passion of Vendetta. It never comes close of the emotional impact of Valerie's letter, for exemple. Not for me, anyway.
 
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This was a graphic novel that I'd spent years hearing about, finally bought, then was disappointed by the mediocrity of it. So sue me. That emperor had no clothes. Just because the outside world's critical elite discovered it and declared it iconic doesn't mean a thing. The Kree-Skull war in the original Avengers was more pivotal than Watchmen, the Dark Knight et al put together. This Watchmen fetish, it's llke the adulation for Kirby. Yeah, yeah, great imagination. But he couldn't draw his way out of a paper bag. This hallowed history can kiss my B ***.
 
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John Q. Public said:
This was a graphic novel that I'd spent years hearing about, finally bought, then was disappointed by the mediocrity of it. So sue me. That emperor had no clothes. Just because the outside world's critical elite discovered it and declared it iconic doesn't mean a thing. The Kree-Skull war in the original Avengers was more pivotal than Watchmen, the Dark Knight et al put together. This Watchmen fetish, it's llke the adulation for Kirby. Yeah, yeah, great imagination. But he couldn't draw his way out of a paper bag. This hallowed history can kiss my B ***.
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And that's why nobody here likes you.
 
Yeah, let's burn the heretic. BURN HIM! :twisted:

Or at least give him an embarassing subnic. Could we do that?
 
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John Q. Public said:
This was a graphic novel that I'd spent years hearing about, finally bought, then was disappointed by the mediocrity of it. So sue me. That emperor had no clothes. Just because the outside world's critical elite discovered it and declared it iconic doesn't mean a thing. The Kree-Skull war in the original Avengers was more pivotal than Watchmen, the Dark Knight et al put together. This Watchmen fetish, it's llke the adulation for Kirby. Yeah, yeah, great imagination. But he couldn't draw his way out of a paper bag. This hallowed history can kiss my B ***.
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We only like the book because we're supposed to like it?
Hardly, it's a great piece of storytelling. Credit us with knowing our own minds and we're credit you with actually having understood the story.
 
Flamed! I love it. Man, you just lay back and genially yank a chain, and the knives come out. Cool. I just think Watchmen is a false (and drearily drawn) idol, and there's a MOMA political correctness to falling in line to the renown and respect it has accumulated, if not earned. I picked it up, read it with great enthusiasm and open-mindedness, then realized: This Watchmen thingy blows.

I'm not passing through here to crave approval or pull a groin muscle in an effort to be put on a pedestal and adored (you know who you are).

Hey Doc: Nobody likes me? I'm shattered, shocked. I'm crushed. Your grizzled opinion means so very much to me that I'm really, really hurt. Vote me off the island.

And

Try

To

Imagine

How

Little

I

Care.......
 
I doubt you could have sat down and read it word for word and actually say it's mediocre...

Even if you weren't a fan, you can't deny its brilliance.
 
John Q. is obviously the author of the 2 Watchmen bashing threads Bendis saw last week.

I personally don't have a problem with you not liking it. And Doc I wouldn't presume that the reason he didn't like it is because he didn't read it "word for word". Different strokes for different folks.
 
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