Ultimatum series discussion [spoilers]

[J. Agamemnon]

We need to do something about this seriously, whether it's writing a hundred letters to marvel or start a viral campaign, this needs to end

Go on...


I'm all for this in any fashion.

 

[Random]

Go on...


I'm all for this in any fashion.

I'm thinking like a site called WhatWentWrongWithTheUU.com, but a better name, or something like WhyMarvelWhy.com. And just fill it with essays and articles(well written ones) about all this crap, educating the public and getting support. Then spread the word across the internet anyway we can. And maybe fill up Marvel's e-mail inbox with links, full article, and what not. Thing with something like that is you gotta go all in or it's a waste of time.

 

[Dpsyche]

So Rick Jones had nothing to do with. Ben and Sue defeated Dormanu with no explantion. Wolverine who is meant to survive anything can survive a nuke but not repulsor rays and optic blasts at the same time. Wanda's body is still hidden. Toad died at some point but no indication if Wraith, Firestar, and Psylocke survived. Man with Strange's body unrevealed. Logan's letter unrevealed.



Loeb...:arrgh:

Wolverines letter was revealed in Ultimate X-men. It was talked about in the issue where Wolverine went to see Peter Parker for some blood analysis or something. They didn't show exactly what it said but it was something along the lines of Kitty being like a daughter to him.

I really thought Rick Jones was going to play a big part in Ultimatum. I can't believe they didn't even bring him up.

I also thought that the real Black Panther (not Cap-Black Panther) would come back to help out. Cap did him a big favor and I thought he was gonna come save the day. It seems like they forgot about him.

 

[Dpsyche]

Among the other plot holes and things left hanging, I notice they also didn't reveal what was in the box Wolverine gave to Kitty. Maybe it was a piece of his brain so they could regenerate him.... heheh.

Or better yet it will be revealed to be Jeph Loebs severed head in the box. Wolverine saying "you'll know what to do" means burn the fu*%er so he won't regenerate.:twisted:

 

[Zombipanda]

Or better yet it will be revealed to be Jeph Loebs severed head in the box.

Please, please, please, please tell me that was an obscure Barton Fink reference.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

I'm thinking like a site called WhatWentWrongWithTheUU.com, but a better name, or something like WhyMarvelWhy.com. And just fill it with essays and articles(well written ones) about all this crap, educating the public and getting support. Then spread the word across the internet anyway we can. And maybe fill up Marvel's e-mail inbox with links, full article, and what not. Thing with something like that is you gotta go all in or it's a waste of time.

id be down for something like this.

 

[The Overlord]

Could Ultimates Vol. 4 be even worse then this?

 

[Goodwill]

I'm thinking like a site called WhatWentWrongWithTheUU.com, but a better name, or something like WhyMarvelWhy.com. And just fill it with essays and articles(well written ones) about all this crap, educating the public and getting support. Then spread the word across the internet anyway we can. And maybe fill up Marvel's e-mail inbox with links, full article, and what not. Thing with something like that is you gotta go all in or it's a waste of time.

I'd contribute something for sure. Loeb is the reason I've stopped reading comics. I only read UU titles and now I don't read comics.

 

[Zombipanda]

I'd contribute something for sure. Loeb is the reason I've stopped reading comics. I only read UU titles and now I don't read comics.

:shock:

Might I suggest reading something other than UU comics?

 

[Void.M]

Oh my Good God, that was just awful.

Let's start with the beginning: Wolverine has a BERSERKER RAGE. Why is he talking to Magneto and telling him ****? Why doesn't he just go "RARRRGH" and stab him up? Why, when it seems Hawkeye is SO accurate he can shoot an arrow into Cyclops' temple so the arrow snaps and doesn't kill him, can he not kill Magneto during Wolverine's fighty fighty? Why doesn't Jean TK Magneto's helmet off? Why don't Cyclops and/or Captain America have ANY kind of strategy? And how does a repulsor blast and a optic blast kill Wolverine? And why didn't Magneto just de-adamantium him before? Why is this so ****? Also, when Wolverine dies, I like how the rest CONTINUE TO JUST WATCH. It is, apparently, what they are good at.

Then there's Nick Fury who, apparently, has had, since before THE TOMORROW PEOPLE an OFF-SWITCH to Magneto. Think about this, if Nick Fury KNEW that if he told Magneto that he's really a human, Magneto would stop all the hate, why did he not do this BEFORE? They've had telepaths like... oh, I dunno, XAVIER. If I were Cyclops, I'd kill Fury too for being such a douche.

And Thing wouldn't kill Doom. He's not like that. And even if he did, I would think Doom would go out on a asteroid flying into the sun. What nonsense.

AND THEN THERE IS A MYSTERY VILLAIN BEHIND IT ALL.

Colossus said it best with, "When is this going to stop?" and "How can it get any worse?"

Apparently, it won't and it will.

Jeph Loeb is the worst comic writer I can think of. I cannot think of a comic writer with less talent and skill and integrity than this man.

Worst than Liefield?

 

[moonmaster]

I haven't kept up on Ultimatum and knew absolutely zero about it besides the fact that it's about Magneto causing Hurricane Katrina or something but I decided to read the Wikipedia entry on this and whaaaaatttt?????

What exactly was the point of all this? Just to kill everybody?

Was the full title Ultimatum: The Book Where We Kill All the Characters?

I em cunfus-ed

 

[Jaggyd]

I haven't kept up on Ultimatum and knew absolutely zero about it besides the fact that it's about Magneto causing Hurricane Katrina or something but I decided to read the Wikipedia entry on this and whaaaaatttt?????

What exactly was the point of all this? Just to kill everybody?

Was the full title Ultimatum: The Book Where We Kill All the Characters?

I em cunfus-ed

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[Zombipanda]

I haven't kept up on Ultimatum and knew absolutely zero about it besides the fact that it's about Magneto causing Hurricane Katrina or something but I decided to read the Wikipedia entry on this and whaaaaatttt?????

What exactly was the point of all this? Just to kill everybody?

Was the full title Ultimatum: The Book Where We Kill All the Characters?

I em cunfus-ed

I think the point was supposed to overturn the status of mutants in the Ultimate Universe. I guess they thought that either mutants had become too accepted in the universe, or there wasn't a valid enough reason for their persecution. So the idea was to wash away the complacency of the characters, kill off a bunch of mutants, and trigger a mutant/human war.

At least, that's the impression I get.

 

[The Overlord]

I think the point was supposed to overturn the status of mutants in the Ultimate Universe. I guess they thought that either mutants had become too accepted in the universe, or there wasn't a valid enough reason for their persecution. So the idea was to wash away the complacency of the characters, kill off a bunch of mutants, and trigger a mutant/human war.

At least, that's the impression I get.

What's the point of heighten the mutant/human conflict if they canceled UXM and killed of most of the major X-Men heroes and villains? How are they supposed to follow up on that plot point?

I mean what would you do with an UXM title at this point, introduce Ultimate Thunderbird and have him fight Ultimate Unus the untouchable?

 

[Sacred&Profane]

What's the point of heighten the mutant/human conflict if they canceled UXM and killed of most of the major X-Men heroes and villains? How are they supposed to follow up on that plot point?

I mean what would you do with an UXM title at this point, introduce Ultimate Thunderbird and have him fight Ultimate Unus the untouchable?

Unus was already killed by Loeb in Ultimates 3 #4.

 

[The Overlord]

Unus was already killed by Loeb in Ultimates 3 #4.

Well I was just being ironic, but there you go Loeb ensured that it will be almost no way to follow up on the renewed human/mutant conflict.

 

[ultimatedjf]

im looking for it as well, if i find it first, ill pm you. could you do the same?

Could I possibly get this too, please?

 

[bluebeast]

I'd totally be game for a blog or something about the demise of the Ultimate Universe.

 

[thekendon]

I think that one of the biggest problems with Ultimatum (and I realize that it had many, large problems) is that an event like that is simply too big for modern comics. We can assume that Ultimatum affected as many people in the UU, if not more, than Hurricane Katrina did in reality. People were still talking about it three years later and it certainly still affects people today. Here is the problem: in order to have the realistic 3 year recovery period (in Ultimate comics time) that Ultimatum ought to have, it would have to influence Ultimate comics for at least the next 48 years (real time), if the same time conversion of 8 years real time = 1/2 year ultimate comics time remains true.

I highly doubt it would even make it past three years in real time because:
1: most of the writers probably want to forget Ultimatum as soon as possible
2: those that don't (otherwise known as Loeb and... uh... Loeb) will probably forget about Ultimatum
3: I know that I, and presumably many other readers would want to hear about Ultimatum for the next three years.

There are, therefore, two options.
1: the UU takes the hit. It would not be the worst thing, after all time is a flexible thing in comics.
2: Ultimatum is retconned. Should this be the case, I think that the most likely scenario is that Loeb will think that the best way to get Giant Man back for one story is to just make Ultimatum go away.

And on an unrelated note: why couldn't Magician just stop it from happening?

 

[moonmaster]

That's actually an interesting point.

When we were asked to bring in an example of a really, really bad comic in my Graphic Forms class, I brought Ultimates 3 #1. There was I think one other guy who had read Millar's Ultimates, and he kept nodding as I was trying to get across how huge of a jump in immaturity and silliness the book had made with this issue. One point I made was that in Ultimates Vol. 1, there is no epic superhero battle until five issues into the series, and it's handled as a strategically planned military operation and the consequences of the battle and 500 people dying is treated as a tragedy and something that has to be recovered from. In Ultimates 3, Venom smashes through a wall a couple of pages into the issue and everyone start punching him.

The idea of writing a relatively grounded take on a superhero universe was such an interesting concept but when you throw around massive tragedies like they're nothing, you completely pull the story out of any semblance of reality. You have to be willing to commit to these kinds of things. In Miracleman, Kid Miracleman murders - often, individually, by hand, and as graphically as you could possibly imagine - 40,000 men, women, and children, and destroys half of London. Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman subsequently treated this unimaginable horror, basically a superhero holocaust that took only a few hours, rightfully as one of the most devastating and important events in the course of human history, because they'd committed to writing a book that had some basis in reality. They were trying to show just how terrible superhuman beings existing in the real world could be. Ultimates seemed to start out with similar intentions but all that's been squandered. It's just more typical superhero books, unnecessary ones at that.

It's depressing that they could take something like the Ultimate Universe and literally strip it of all the things that were supposed to make it unique. They might as well retcon Peter into having been bitten by a radioactive spider and have Tony carry his armor in a briefcase.

 

[Bass]

Good points, Mooney.

 

[Random]

id be down for something like this.

If we do we definitely have to get Bass and Mooney on board for obvious reasons

 

[E]

Could I possibly get this too, please?

I'd totally be game for a blog or something about the demise of the Ultimate Universe.

You guys could just post articles here in the form of regular threads.

 

[Zombipanda]

Are you guys really going to start an initiative complaining about a book that's already complete in a market that bought it published by an imprint that was stagnant long before the book came out?

It's not like you guys aren't getting what you want. Bendis and Millar are the two main guys staying on board, and they're the two architects of the universe. Ellis is writing the first miniseries. What's there to still complain about?

 

[Random]

You guys could just post articles here in the form of regular threads.

Well I was thinking a site that has those article as a primary focus. And it's more like a movement with the intent of reaching Marvel and encouraging them to stop throwing things away. I doubt it will ever reach that height, but I'd rather keep this forum as is. Maybe we can link to articles here or whatever here.

Are you guys really going to start an initiative complaining about a book that's already complete in a market that bought it published by an imprint that was stagnant long before the book came out?

It's not like you guys aren't getting what you want. Bendis and Millar are the two main guys staying on board, and they're the two architects of the universe. Ellis is writing the first miniseries. What's there to still complain about?

But Loeb is still doing Ultimates 4 and I doubt Marvel is done letting him ruin ****.

 

[Bass]

The petition, in my opinion, is a waste of our time.

Since the Loebification of recent time, and the crappy big events of the big 2, I've spent my time, instead of complaining or creating a grassroots approach, looking for comics that I'll enjoy.

I found GREEN MANOR which is, without a doubt, one of my most favourite comics I've ever read.

A petition gives this crap attention. The only way for it to do is to not buy it, not talk about it, not let it exist in any meaningful way.

As it stands, I would rather see Marvel and DC collapse and us never see another X-Men comic, than give them the time of day and ideas how to 'fix' it. Marvel and DC should not be putting out the rubbish that they do, and I certainly am not interested in the nonsensical uphill battle to fix it.

They just should not be making these kinds of mistakes at the level at which they operate.

There are better and more interesting comics out there, and they deserve our support, not the comics that continually disappoint.

In the cinema, it occurred to me that Michael Bay will never make a good movie. His movies will be gratuitous nonsense. I did not right a petition to get rid of Michael Bay, nor did I swear off cinema, and instead, watch other movies.

In television, I eventually realised that Tim Kring will never 'fix' HEROES and that JJ Abrams will never give any method of sophistication to FRINGE and that Ronald D Moore had no intention of returning the integrity to BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. So I dumped them all. I did not dump television. I did not try to save the show with spec scripts. I went out and found THE WIRE and ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT.

To put it another way... In football (soccer), I got sick and tired of referees who didn't curb the antisocial behaviour of the players on the pitch that physically threatened my teammates, and I got sick and tired of no one doing anything about it.

See, the way it works is that, on the pitch, if a player threatens to beat up another player, it's 'bad form' but not a big deal. Provided it stays on the pitch. Between two players. If a third player gets involved, it's 'wrong'. If it's a person on the sidelines, it's 'wrong'. If it's the goalie, it's 'wrong'.

I, on the other hand, think that when a 19-year old skinny kid who does a perfect tackle on a big guy that makes him fall, and said big guy threatens to punch the kid in the face if he does it again, is antisocial behaviour and the man must be sent off for at least 2 minutes.

(An aside - footballers are the most hypocritical men in the world. They act all manly like they'll take your 'block off', but if you touch them, they dive to the floor and roll around begging for a penalty. ******s.)

I play in goal and thus could not, ever, stand up for a friend. Seriously. If my friend got threatened and I stood up for him, everyone on the pitch would act like I did something wrong.

My options were to become a referee or to just 'put up with it'. The latter seemed untenable to me, so I considered becoming a referee... for three seconds. It took that long to realize my solution to my problem of "I spend too much time with *******" was to spend more time with them.

So I picked a third option: I only play on Wednesday night, when my friends on my team TRAIN. We play for an hour. Just us. Friends. I don't do any of the rest.

I enjoy football.

Why would I want to spend my time complaining about people who don't give a tenth of the attention to their work that we do? Why would I want to spend time thinking about a mysterious plot line in LOST when the writers have so obviously not bothered? Why would I actively give my time and effort to something I want to disappear from the face of the Earth and never be involved with?

I don't want to spend any time with Ultimatum, or any of that garbage. I want to sit back, read PUNISHER MAX, THE AGE OF THE SENTRY, BATMAN: THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD (the comic is better than anything Jeph Loeb has written, and it's just an okay book) and look for things like GREEN MANOR and SCOTT PILGRIM. I want to go back and re-read MIRACLEMAN and HELLBOY and EMPOWERED. I want to get excited about the next thing Oni Press is going to put out.

I don't want to be involved in a world where the biggest question on everyone's lips is, "Will Spider-Man fight Green Goblin?"

I don't care if they kill Wolverine or Superman. These aren't these characters.

This is fanfiction.

A petition would only legitimize it. A comic that was put out without any consideration or care of any kind.

No, sir. I'm done. I'm happy to talk about comics I like. I'm happy to discuss just why this comic is bad on any level. But I will not involve myself in any attempt to 'fix' it.

They shouldn't be making these types of mistakes. I don't condone it, and I don't intend to teach them how to fix it. Firstly, I'm not qualified to do so, and secondly, I shouldn't have to.

I wash my hands of all this crap.

And I urge you to do the same.

Go into your comic shop and ask for one of the following:

GREEN MANOR
SCOTT PILGRIM
EMPOWERED
BONE
ASTERIX
THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY
HELLBOY
FABLES
RANMA ½
THE LAST CALL
JIMMY CORRIGAN: THE SMARTEST KID ON EARTH
TOM STRONG
100 BULLETS
THE SPIRIT
GLOBAL FREQUENCY
TINTIN

Or something that you see on the shelf that looks like it might interest you.

Pick these up. Read them. Then come back to me and ask if ULTIMATUM is worth one scintilla of your time.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Bass, you should give Madame Xanadu a go, its by Matt Wagner, and the art is terrific.

What's funny about this post, is I can envision Bass saying this. All those Italics, he's waving his hands around, making a point, the sharp stops there, he's giving you a look.

And yes, it's an intelligent one.

Bass is very charismatic, on the flip side, he supposedly can't get women.

I highly doubt that.

 

[moonmaster]

Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?

Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)

 

[Random]

The petition, in my opinion, is a waste of our time.

I'm not picturing it as a petition, but as say a movement, to try and get people on this bandwagon of not accepting stuff like this, the post you just wrote is brilliant, image a site that featured alternatives like that as a focal point? Rather than just a comment in a forum only about a hundred people may read.

Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?

Well that would be a part of the site educating people on the idea of not paying for crap

Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)

That's definitely why I'm so ticked off, I mean I haven't even bought an Ultimate comic in like a year or two. But I'm still so thoroughly pissed off, not only because I bought an issue on a whim and fell in love with the line, but that there was so much endless potential for just absolutely great stories. It could have easily gone on for another decade or two of absolutely fantastic storytelling. So I'm very pissed off and just want Marvel to know of my intense dissatisfaction, and somehow writing an easily deletable e-mail just doesn't seem worth it. But if there a way I can just start a snowball down the hill then I may consider it. I never said this idea would work, or that it would be effective. I just feel something needs to be done.

 

[ProjectX2]

You guys are wasting time even bothering to talk about this. Bass is right; don't bother talking about Ultimatum or any bad comics - just go read ones you like.