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Now, as for LOST, I didn't get through the first season. It became apparent that the writers had no idea what was going on in any meaningful way. Sure, they may have had the whole 'magnet' thing planned, but they didn't know how to bring it into the story. It's evident when you compare LOST to shows with an overarching mystery that is known by the writers. The first season of HEROES moves with an almost clockwork precision. The main question of the first season of BABYLON 5 is revealed in its 9th episode. And then there's all manner of other stories that are set up, progressed, and resolved throughout the show. Bringing up an overarching plot element and then returning to the status quo is a tease, not progression. THE X-FILES did this at least once a season. And then LOST seemed to go out of its way to make its characters unlikeable. When I quit the show, I liked Daniel Dae Kim (because of CRUSADE and not because of anything he did in LOST) and Hurley. Even Locke I was tired of.

I disagree here Because the first two seasons of Lost were not about the overall mythology, they were not about solving the overall mysteries but more about the characters and their personal stories and quest for redemption, while throwing in a lot of philosophical and religious ideas and metaphors. So you have to watch those two seasons as an episodic show. Also there are bunch of mysteries in the first season that has been answered. The only big three questions introduced in the first season that haven't been answered are, what are the Other's goal, What is the island, and what is the monster. The thing is, these answers are the writer's climatic ones, they're the show ending ones. But meanwhile we do get the set up, progressed, and resolution with a bunch of other intriguing mysteries. And just as you said how a show can switch gears and either be better or worst using the Buffy Angel example, there was always going to be that switch from a character drama to exploring the overall mythologies. The only problem was it seemed that switch should have happened in the third season, but it caught caught in an odd middle ground between those two concepts. So to say the writers had no idea in any meaningful way is really bull, just because their early on focus of the show was the characters, their progression and development, does not mean there was no plan. They knew what they were doing, where they wanted to go early on, but they just wanted to start with the characters and slowly go deeper into the grander mythology.

As a fan whose seen all the episodes I can say that it is very clear they new what they were doing with it very early on. There are a lot of things shown in the first season that you learn later on which to me clearly demonstrates foresight into it all.
 
It was because of Illyria, plain and simple, I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it...

For me... it was Spike. I loved the Spike/Angel dynamic. The Immortal episode is sooooooo good.

I disagree here Because the first two seasons of Lost were not about the overall mythology, they were not about solving the overall mysteries but more about the characters and their personal stories and quest for redemption, while throwing in a lot of philosophical and religious ideas and metaphors. So you have to watch those two seasons as an episodic show. Also there are bunch of mysteries in the first season that has been answered. The only big three questions introduced in the first season that haven't been answered are, what are the Other's goal, What is the island, and what is the monster. The thing is, these answers are the writer's climatic ones, they're the show ending ones. But meanwhile we do get the set up, progressed, and resolution with a bunch of other intriguing mysteries. And just as you said how a show can switch gears and either be better or worst using the Buffy Angel example, there was always going to be that switch from a character drama to exploring the overall mythologies. The only problem was it seemed that switch should have happened in the third season, but it caught caught in an odd middle ground between those two concepts. So to say the writers had no idea in any meaningful way is really bull, just because their early on focus of the show was the characters, their progression and development, does not mean there was no plan. They knew what they were doing, where they wanted to go early on, but they just wanted to start with the characters and slowly go deeper into the grander mythology.

As a fan whose seen all the episodes I can say that it is very clear they new what they were doing with it very early on. There are a lot of things shown in the first season that you learn later on which to me clearly demonstrates foresight into it all.

There's a simple principle when it comes to the 'big' mystery arc of a show: if the writers bring it up as a major discussion point of an episode, they're honour-bound to develop it. In BABYLON 5, whenever a mystery was brought up, it was heavily progressed (though I'm sure, there's one or two exceptions). Otherwise, it wasn't mentioned. If it's not mentioned, then I, as the audience, don't feel I need to be given an answer. But if every week, the show goes on about Cylon destiny or the final five or the monster on the island or the Other's plan... well, they gotta do something with it, or it's just a big continuity ****. They're stalling for time. HEROES really did that in its third volume. In the first season of LOST, you had preggo-girl and psychic kid. And the shaft. And every episode brought it up and did nothing with it. :/

If it brings it up, it's got to progress it. Otherwise, it's just a tease.
 
There's a simple principle when it comes to the 'big' mystery arc of a show: if the writers bring it up as a major discussion point of an episode, they're honour-bound to develop it. In BABYLON 5, whenever a mystery was brought up, it was heavily progressed (though I'm sure, there's one or two exceptions). Otherwise, it wasn't mentioned. If it's not mentioned, then I, as the audience, don't feel I need to be given an answer. But if every week, the show goes on about Cylon destiny or the final five or the monster on the island or the Other's plan... well, they gotta do something with it, or it's just a big continuity ****. They're stalling for time. HEROES really did that in its third volume. In the first season of LOST, you had preggo-girl and psychic kid. And the shaft. And every episode brought it up and did nothing with it. :/

If it brings it up, it's got to progress it. Otherwise, it's just a tease.
I really don't see it as stalling rather just being slow, slowly peeling the layers to it all. I think the pacing is actually quite good, because there is just soo much there to just throw it all out there and loose sight of these character. Also if you think about it, if the psychic kid's power doesn't play a major role until the end through a natural progress of the established story you'll have a bunch of fans wondering why they would just now see this when it would make sense to have sense examples of it earlier. Likewise with the four toed statue, people would be wondering why the castaways never saw any remnants of this civilization until we learn about them. The creators carefully place a lot of little clues that shows us how big of a picture this show is so we can slowly unravel it. Yes they are teases, but they are teases that have and will pay off. I doubt by the end on next year there will be no loose ends
 
I think this might've gotten a little off-topic.

I don't rate the firefly comics at all. Yet the series and film are perfect as they are. Not too long and start and finish with 1hr30, 2 hr episodes. I'd prefer more series like that rather than fewer that are really long.

That said some work. Bass you love babylon 5 and that really flags to start off with, and the end was hideously mutilated by editorial ("no season 5 try to wrap everything up at the end of this season.....oh ok, your ratings are up again give us another series"). Long series have faults, but can still rule.

I think BSG could easy reach that level of epic. Is it true that they're gonna finish on a massive 3hour film to mirror the pilot/miniseries?

And on a marginally related note- I bought the boardgame, it's all kindsa awsome.
 
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For me... it was Spike. I loved the Spike/Angel dynamic. The Immortal episode is sooooooo good.

Oh god.... Spike and Angel in Rome was probably one of the best episodes in the entire series. And it had Illyria.
 
Yes. BSG's first season was pretty bloody brilliant as I recall.

And double yes. In the parallel world where Firefly continued, the third season is rubbish.

:lol:

I'm glad you and I can both see that universe, Nexus.

No. Don't even mention BSG and Lost in the same sentence as Heroes, except to say "Man, isn't it amazing how much better BSG and Lost are than Heroes?" Seriously, one of these things does not belong ....

I'll give you that season 3 of BSG and season2/first half of season 3 of Lost were sub-par. Bad, even. But Lost really picked up in its fourth season, and BSG has had a fantastic final season as well so far, IMO. Heroes was basically a mess from the get-go, we just didn't realize it until the completely retarded second and third seasons.

The worst episodes of Lost and BSG look like masterpieces compared to the rubbish that Heroes has become. Hell, they look like masterpieces compared to most of the crap on TV these days, what with endless LAW AND ORDER and CSI shows running around, Pushing Daisies getting canceled, and countless, brainless reality TV filling up the airwaves.

All of which is to say, even with some sub-par seasons and ridiculous storylines (the Cylons traded sides how many times? How long are they gonna stay in those stupid cages?), Lost and BSG are miles and leagues and light years ahead of Heroes and its ilk, and damn good television most of the time to boot.



Don't we all.:cry:

Wow.

As for the Final Cylon, I thought it made a lot of sense.
For a long time, it was said that the Five were in the fleet. Then, all of a sudden, Deanna says only four are. It was obvious that the fifth was supposed to be dead. It also made a lot of sense for the 13th Tribe to be Cylons. And for the Final Five to have been from Earth, that had to be the case. As for them resurrecting. . .well, they're Cylons. Of course they're going to resurrect. The question now becomes. . .HOW did they resurrect?

Good point. Still, it just didn't hit a chord...I mean...Ellen? So what?

As for Kara, well, that, along with the question I asked and the general "Well, where do they go now?", become the questions to ask for the final nine episodes.

Quite true.

I'm stoked. Hell, I'm excited for both The Plan and Caprica, too.

I'll look forward to more of your posts in this thread then.

I'm a bit worried about how Caprica will come off, however.

I think BSG could easy reach that level of epic. Is it true that they're gonna finish on a massive 3hour film to mirror the pilot/miniseries?

The final episode will be a two-parter (titled "Daybreak"). The first part will be an hour long. The second part will be two hours long.

And its been said that the DVD release will be significantly extended with extra footage (possibly an additional hour), much like Pegasus was on the 2.5 DVD Season.

And on a marginally related note- I bought the boardgame, it's all kindsa awsome.

Care to give a more detailed review? How's it work? Space battles, fighting Cylons on ship, conspiracy/Cylon hunting?
 
I really don't see it as stalling rather just being slow, slowly peeling the layers to it all. I think the pacing is actually quite good, because there is just soo much there to just throw it all out there and loose sight of these character. Also if you think about it, if the psychic kid's power doesn't play a major role until the end through a natural progress of the established story you'll have a bunch of fans wondering why they would just now see this when it would make sense to have sense examples of it earlier. Likewise with the four toed statue, people would be wondering why the castaways never saw any remnants of this civilization until we learn about them. The creators carefully place a lot of little clues that shows us how big of a picture this show is so we can slowly unravel it. Yes they are teases, but they are teases that have and will pay off. I doubt by the end on next year there will be no loose ends

Slow pacing is different to stalling. BSG and LOST and HEROES stall. THE WIRE and GENERATION KILL had a slow pace.

That said some work. Bass you love babylon 5 and that really flags to start off with, and the end was hideously mutilated by editorial ("no season 5 try to wrap everything up at the end of this season.....oh ok, your ratings are up again give us another series"). Long series have faults, but can still rule.

I actually like season 1. The first episode "Midnight on the Firing Line" is really quite intense. As for season 5... the first half is rubbish. This is true. But the second half where he plays out the Drakh/Centauri angle fully works very well. But, definitely, season 5 is really weak for most of it. :/

Oh god.... Spike and Angel in Rome was probably one of the best episodes in the entire series. And it had Illyria.

The slow-motion fight was so gorram funny.
 
There's a simple principle when it comes to the 'big' mystery arc of a show: if the writers bring it up as a major discussion point of an episode, they're honour-bound to develop it. In BABYLON 5, whenever a mystery was brought up, it was heavily progressed (though I'm sure, there's one or two exceptions). Otherwise, it wasn't mentioned. If it's not mentioned, then I, as the audience, don't feel I need to be given an answer. But if every week, the show goes on about Cylon destiny or the final five or the monster on the island or the Other's plan... well, they gotta do something with it, or it's just a big continuity ****. They're stalling for time. HEROES really did that in its third volume. In the first season of LOST, you had preggo-girl and psychic kid. And the shaft. And every episode brought it up and did nothing with it. :/

If it brings it up, it's got to progress it. Otherwise, it's just a tease.

Yes, but Lost and BSG don't bring them up every episode. And when they do, they reveal a little at a time. This is useful in two ways: it allows the creators to periodically remind the viewers of the main mysteries behind the show, and it also (usually) increases "audience participation" - I find myself constantly thinking, when watching an episode of Lost or BSG, "well how is this going to play out?" And then we get a little clue, and my brain goes into overdrive trying to piece it all together.

It's all very deliberate, especially now that we're reaching the end of these respective series. Shows like BSG and Lost reward extended viewership and an active participation in trying to solve the show's central mysteries.

Slow pacing is different to stalling. BSG and LOST and HEROES stall. THE WIRE and GENERATION KILL had a slow pace.

I don't think it's fair to compare them. They're completely different types of shows, and not just by genre; The Wire, for example (and I say this having seen only I think the first season) doesn't really have a large, over-arching "mystery" and a complex "mythology" that the entire series is based around. It doesn't have the weight of needing to mete out the answers to its central mysteries over the course of an entire series, at least not in the same way BSG and Lost do.

What I can't stand is a show with a weak *** concept or a show that betrays its concept because the show flounders, gets desperate, and falls apart. If a show's concept is "a fully planned mystery about people on an island" or "the cyclons have a plan", then the writers should know that concept. If their concept is intrinsically finite, that it has a beginning, middle, and end, then the show's writers are honour-bound to know it in advance. If the show's concept doesn't, if it's a repeatable concept, then they need no ending.

It seems we have a fundamental disagreement that must lie at the heart of this entire conversation: I like the direction they took BSG, you don't. I think they managed to change the show in a good way, you don't. In short - we're arguing over fundamental opinions that can be neither proved nor disproved.

In other words, we'll never agree, so it's probably best just to get back on topic :D

P.S. I think most of those shows that have "repeatable" concepts are inherently weak because every episode is the same. I don't watch House because after you've seen one episode, you've seen them all (House is grumpy, some patient has a weird disease, House is grumpy, they think they've solved it, but oops! it just makes things worse, House continues to be grumpy, one of his underlings has to break into the person's house/do something else illegal to find answers, no one has a clue, House pulls a solution out of his *** but he has to kill the patient for five seconds to use it, but, completely unexpectedly, it magically works. House makes a grumpy yet profound speech about how the "real world" works. Wilson shakes his head. The end). I can only watch one episode of Mission Impossible at a time, because every freaking episode is the same thing over and over again. Etc. I prefer shows that move, even if they move slowly.

P.P.S. Have you seen Damages, Bass? It's easily the best show I've seen for wrapping up it's central mysteries in a meaningful and timely way, and the one season of it that's aired is probably better than Lost and BSG combined. If you haven't, you should seriously check it out.
 
Care to give a more detailed review? How's it work? Space battles, fighting Cylons on ship, conspiracy/Cylon hunting?

Hmmm...i'll say a little about it. but it might be a little misplaced. discussion might be better in an "all about boardgames" thread. but anyway here goes.

it's got some of the same elements as werewolves or mafia if you know those i.e. you get given cards at the start and some of them say "you are a cylon" on them. Also half way through the game more cards are dealt, and if you started off as a human it might now transpire that you were a sleeper agent.

The game is prertty complicated, but that's more to do with the number of things happening at once. Humans have got to reach Kobol, by jumping a few times, but they've got to make sure they have enough resources (fuel,food,population, morale). Also Centurions keep on boarding the ship and you have to kill them off, or this can be the end as well.

There's not a lot of dice rolling in the game. Sometimes you need to make "skill checks" where all the players put some of there skill cards in a pile, and if the number of good ones beats the bad ones you pass...I'm simplifying a little but you see the scope here for cylons to scuper the human's plans.

there's 10 characters- pretty much who you'd expect. There's also two titles, the admiral (who has control of the nukes) and the president (who has a deck of special cards).

Each turn you get crisis cards where nearly anything could happen. e.g. Admiral has to decide wether to stage a coup or not. If he does he gets the president title and morale goes down, but if he doesn't population, food and fuel all go down.

I think it's done a pretty good job of capturing the paranoia and tough decisions that are present in the series. and all the characters seem well thought out. e.g. if you're gaius you pick more cylon cards and so are more likely to be a cylon, so people distrust you more already. Have only played once so far but hopefully stays good. And it might be better with more people too.
 
After my *****ing about the premiere, I have to say I LOVED last night's episode. Intrigues, mutiny, crotchety old men with guns, it was friggen fun.
 
Adama and Tigh running around with guns in last nights ep was officially bad-***.

I KNOW!! I swear to the gods, Adama/Tigh and Kara/Lee's scenes were friggen awesome, even Roslin and Batlar's scenes were perfect.



Have to admit though, I could have done without
the Adama/Roslin make out session, cus it was like watching my grandparents make out
.


Read a couple interesting theories floating on Moore's blog and the SciFi message boards

Kara Thrace -
She could possibly be the nBSG version of Count Iblis
Helen Tigh -
could be a proto-Six, hence the emotional connection between Saul and captiveSix
 
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Have to admit though, I could have done without
the Adama/Roslin make out session, cus it was like watching my grandparents make out
.

At least it was better than last week when we actually saw them
more or less naked and lying in bed together.
*shivers*

But yeah, another amazing episode. I actually didn't much care for last week's, as it seemed like it was just filler as we built up to this week's episode and this close to the end we really didn't need that. But this episode was great. Next week's looks even better. Roslin screaming "I'm coming for all of you!" in the teaser means only one thing - she's gonna kick some ***!

The only thing I really DON'T like about this plot line is that
it's fairly obvious from the way Adama was talking to Gaeta that anyone who participated in the mutiny is getting killed, which makes me sad because I've always liked Gaeta and was hoping he'd make it to the end. Of course, that's looking like less and less of a possibility.
 
After my *****ing about the premiere, I have to say I LOVED last night's episode. Intrigues, mutiny, crotchety old men with guns, it was friggen fun.
Last night's episode was great. Honestly, by now you would think that Gaeta would be smart enough to know that he should've put like, 30 guards on Adama and Tigh. Of course they were going to kick some *** and escape.
Have to admit though, I could have done without
the Adama/Roslin make out session, cus it was like watching my grandparents make out
.
Heh. When it went on for a little too long I was half-expecting someone (probably Kara) to say "Ew".
Kara Thrace -
She could possibly be the nBSG version of Count Iblis
*Wikipedias* Well that would be a pretty bizarre thing to do in the last ten episodes of a series...
The only thing I really DON'T like about this plot line is that
it's fairly obvious from the way Adama was talking to Gaeta that anyone who participated in the mutiny is getting killed, which makes me sad because I've always liked Gaeta and was hoping he'd make it to the end. Of course, that's looking like less and less of a possibility.
I've always been pretty neutral towards Gaeta and now that he's become Admiral *********, I kind of want to see someone shoot his ***.



EDIT: I found this (titled "Worst Commercial Placement Ever") while looking for the promo for next week's episode (spoilers for those who haven't been watching the new season)

[youtube]LW2_2ihIuzI[/youtube]
 
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I've always been pretty neutral towards Gaeta and now that he's become Admiral *********, I kind of want to see someone shoot his ***.

Agreed. I've always disliked Gaeta. He's always been a whiny little douche-bag, now he's a whiny little douche-bag with an agenda.

EDIT: I found this (titled "Worst Commercial Placement Ever") while looking for the promo for next week's episode (spoilers for those who haven't been watching the new season)

[youtube]LW2_2ihIuzI[/youtube]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Thats brilliant!!
 
That's great...

In other news, I LOVED this week's episode... I'm more pumped for this series than I have been since New Caprica.
 
Yesterday's episode was fantastic. As was expected, Gaeta
was executed, though I honestly thought the writers would find some way to get Zarek out of it. It was a very emotional scene, especially with Gaeta talking to Baltar about his childhood. Also, I don't care what anyone else says, I still like Gaeta; it helps that I can totally see where he's coming from, even if he is dead wrong (literally and figuratively, I suppose).

I think my favorite scene was Adama and company
walking through the ship to the command center (or whatever it's called) as various people who had been in hiding rejoined them.
Gaeta's face as it slowly dawned on him what was happening was priceless, and very good acting on his part, too.

Also, Roslin's reaction upon hearing
that Adama had been "killed"?
Utterly fantastic. Why Mary McDonnell hasn't won an Emmy for this show yet is beyond my comprehension.

In other words, another amazing episode. They keep this up and it might just usurp Damages as my favorite show on right now.
 
So, we find out exactly how the Final Five relate to the other models. We find out why Cavil is such a dick. We find out why there's isn't a number 7 model.

Holy ****, I love this show. :shock:
 
I thought it was amazing. They took an episode that was 99% exposition and turned it into one of the best of the season. I loved the idea of
Anders telling everyone the history of the five
, because it got all of the information out in a way that was also exciting (is he going to die?, will he be able to finish?, Starbuck's choices, etc). Truth be told, I much rather them do it this way then spread it out for several episodes. Just devote an entire episode to the mythology of the show so we can move on without it hindering us.

Oh, and it needs to be said: Give Dean Stockwell an Emmy! He was absolutely fantastic and terrifying in this episode; the revelation that
Cavil (or "John") is the one behind the bulk of the series' events
is fantastic, and really enriches his character. His speech about wanting to "taste Gamma rays" or whatever it was was astonishing. He's been one of my favorite actors since Quantum Leap, but I don't think I've ever seen him this good.
 
I'm starting to wonder if maybe the old man and Six's baby will be Daniel reincarnated.


I have to say the idea of Kara being so needy, that she pretty much guaranteed Sam's being a vegetable was brilliant, when she realized, she's pretty much a no one. The look on her face is priceless.
 
Oh, and it needs to be said: Give Dean Stockwell an Emmy! He was absolutely fantastic and terrifying in this episode; the revelation that
Cavil (or "John") is the one behind the bulk of the series' events
is fantastic, and really enriches his character. His speech about wanting to "taste Gamma rays" or whatever it was was astonishing. He's been one of my favorite actors since Quantum Leap, but I don't think I've ever seen him this good.

Word, it was a mighty fine performance
 
Meh. I'm actually growing displeased at the final episodes. I've really no good reason as to why...but it's just not enthralling me like the previous seasons.

And Cavil's speech just sounded like Agent Smith's speech to Morpheus in Matrix.


Ugh. I don't know. I think I'm just still mad at the reveal of the Final Cylon. It should've been Starbuck. I'm still waiting on that explanation to the crash and dogtags on Earth.
 
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Meh. I'm actually growing displeased at the final episodes. I've really no good reason as to why...but it's just not enthralling me like the previous seasons.

And Cavil's speech just sounded like Agent Smith's speech to Morpheus in Matrix.


Ugh. I don't know. I think I'm just still mad at the reveal of the Final Cylon. It should've been Starbuck. I'm still waiting on that explanation to the crash and dogtags on Earth.

My guess, there's a resurrection chamber on Earth, and she IS a cylon. Maybe #13.
 
Or even better, still a complete human who was somehow resurrected through a Cylon resurrection chamber. That would certainly make her special, if Leoben's ramblings about her "destiny" and "purpose" are to be lent any credence.

It'd kind of create a nice parallel and circular destiny for both humans and Cylons. But it'd have to be written amazingly to come off better than anything but a let-down.
 

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