Can anything be done with the Fantastic Four franchise at this point?

[SSJmole]

Am I the only person that thought Chiklis was awful? Blech.

I liked him in 1 but in 2 not so much as his voice seemed to sound as though he was gargling gravel or something. But then again I couldn't even stand Chris Evans in 2 as he seemed much, much more annoying than in 1.

 

[The Overlord]

As always Ourchair is right.

Also, I've said many times before, but I hate the limited thought that the only way to "save" a movies series is by rebooting it. F4 has no need to reboot, do we want to see the same damn story redone over and over again? F4 only had two movies and covered those stories fairly well. I mean, like MWoF pointed out, the status quo hasn't really changed enough, the characters have not developed as far as they go. at the end of the second movie Richards and Sue are married and Doom was already established in Latveria. Just go from there and make a new story.

Now a revamp I'm always for, instead of try to redo something you just take it into a new direction. Like get the guy who did Sunshine as director, maybe some casting changes (Evans and Chiklis are great, but definitely change Doom) and go from there.

Don't stroke orchair's ego, his head big enough as is.:wink:

The fact remains, those were told, but not well, most fans, most critics, think those movies sucked, big time.If those stories were told badly as many critics and fans contend, why shouldn't they be told again, properly?

If you can think of a way to revamp the fact that all of the characters are stupid, bland, annoying and generally as interesting as milk toast and that most of the actors are not suited for their roles, then by all means, tell me how we can do that without a reboot.

Also I, unlike you and ourchair, I disagree with MWoF's idea that it would be easier to move ahead with the FF franchise then the X-men films, simply make some X-men prequel films. At least with the X-Men films I like some of the characters, which isn't the case with the FF films.

 

[ourchair]

Also I, unlike you and ourchair, I disagree with MWoF's idea that it would be easier to move ahead with the FF franchise then the X-men films, simply make some X-men prequel films. At least with the X-Men films I like some of the characters, which isn't the case with the FF films.

I'm not saying I dislike the reboot option.

I'm saying the reboot option is not the only one on the plate.

 

[Random]

Don't stroke orchair's ego, his head big enough as is.:wink:

Say what you will about ourchair, that his job supports plagiarism in schools, that he's sexist, that he has an unhealthy obsession with young children, or worst is his, in fact, compound. But damn it the guy knows how to pitch a good and interesting film

The fact remains, those were told, but not well, most fans, most critics, think those movies sucked, big time.If those stories were told badly as many critics and fans contend, why shouldn't they be told again, properly?

Because it's saying "I'm too stupid to try something new." Also critics don't always see things clearly and sometimes put them up on pedestals and most "fans" review I see have the grammar and maturity of a third grader... a dumb third grader, most of whom just seems to be jumping on a bandwagon. Now out of a large group of friends I can personally vouch that they are general at least semi-intelligent movies goers found both Fantastic Four movies fun and entertaining, not such a travesty that would require the completely unnecessary and lazy approach to reboots.

If you can think of a way to revamp the fact that all of the characters are stupid, bland, annoying and generally as interesting as milk toast and that most of the actors are not suited for their roles, then by all means, tell me how we can do that without a reboot.

How many times have I explained this and you're still not getting it? A revamp isn't just trudging along with the the same thing, its moving forward in the same continuity just making it better. This can have but not limited to: a new director, new cast, new design department, etc. Think of the Incredible Hulk, if you rephrase a few lines change the beginning montage a bit, it could easily be in the same continuity as Ang Lee's film. Revamps are making the next one better. And in fact many times these "bad" movies leave the characters in a good and interesting setup that could make for a really good sequel. Daredevil is a perfect example of this, I did not like the movie but they left off with Kingpin knowing his identity right there you got a great interesting plot line for a revamped sequel. The F4 sequel has one interesting plot line it created, Doom just had omnipotent power taken away from him by the F4. Imagine someone like Doom who has such an ego that he can't possibly have any fault attains godhood and only to have taken away by Johny Storm. That leaves this character in a much more interesting position for another actor to take up.

Also I, unlike you and ourchair, I disagree with MWoF's idea that it would be easier to move ahead with the FF franchise then the X-men films, simply make some X-men prequel films. At least with the X-Men films I like some of the characters, which isn't the case with the FF films.

See the thing is X-men HAS to do prequels cause they've written their characters into such corners that they can't advance. MWoF's point wasn't about whether the actors portrayed the character in way that you personally liked. It's that these characters are left open enough to continue in any possible direction giving them a prime opportunity for, you guessed it, a revamp.

I'm not saying I dislike the reboot option.

I'm saying the reboot option is not the only one on the plate.

I think a reboot should only be done after the current series have completely exhausted a good deal characters and storylines and after a decade or so from the last one

 

[ourchair]

Say what you will about ourchair, that his job supports plagiarism in schools, that he's sexist, that he has an unhealthy obsession with young children, or worst is his, in fact, compound.

I'm not sexist, nor am I compound.

Compound is not quite as sexy as I am.

I think a reboot should only be done after the current series have completely exhausted a good deal characters and storylines and after a decade or so from the last one

I'll be honest and say that I probably hew closer to a reboot, it's just that everyone subscribes to that option with such reverential zeal that I think it blinds them from everything else.

In any case, back to an FF movie future:

The Incredible Hulk was indeed a reboot, but I think that outside of the occasional line dropped by Ross and Banner and the opening titles origin, none of it really contradicts anything from Lee's movie (okay, except they got rid of Hulk gets bigger as he gets madder).

I think if we're going to have a new Fantastic Four movie. They can keep Evans and Gruffudd. Chiklis did the best he could, and I actually like him as Ben Grimm more than as the Thing. Alba was nonsense. But whatever they do with a third movie or with a reboot, the most important thing is to skip the origin.

Almost all the Marvel heroes are psychologically unchanged from before they got their powers, so origins aren't really as important to them as they are to space Jew boy scouts, millionaire vigilantes and transcultural warrior women.

The origin should be identical to what Mark Waid did at the start of his FF run: "Recall if you will, when Reed Richards took a crew of intrepid explorers to the stars..." Breeze over that and get straight to these celebrity scientist adventurers who bask in media glory as The Perfect Family with Can-Do Zeal, but behind closed doors bicker constantly like they're the Keaton family from Family Ties.

 

[Ultxon]

I think I'm with the majority here. Requeal, Reboot, or Retool, ultimately it depends on the artistic decisions of the director and writer. Give the fans a great movie. It it restarts the franchise, fine, if it continues it, fine.

 

[Random]

In any case, back to an FF movie future:

The Incredible Hulk was indeed a reboot, but I think that outside of the occasional line dropped by Ross and Banner and the opening titles origin, none of it really contradicts anything from Lee's movie (okay, except they got rid of Hulk gets bigger as he gets madder).

I think if we're going to have a new Fantastic Four movie. They can keep Evans and Gruffudd. Chiklis did the best he could, and I actually like him as Ben Grimm more than as the Thing. Alba was nonsense. But whatever they do with a third movie or with a reboot, the most important thing is to skip the origin.

Almost all the Marvel heroes are psychologically unchanged from before they got their powers, so origins aren't really as important to them as they are to space Jew boy scouts, millionaire vigilantes and transcultural warrior women.

The origin should be identical to what Mark Waid did at the start of his FF run: "Recall if you will, when Reed Richards took a crew of intrepid explorers to the stars..." Breeze over that and get straight to these celebrity scientist adventurers who bask in media glory as The Perfect Family with Can-Do Zeal, but behind closed doors bicker constantly like they're the Keaton family from Family Ties.

But see if its not an origin story, why reboot? It's completely unnecessary when you get the same result with a revamp. The reboot is as bad as the remake, it creates some great movies but in the end it will leaves hollywood dumber and less original than it before

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

But see if its not an origin story, why reboot? It's completely unnecessary when you get the same result with a revamp. The reboot is as bad as the remake, it creates some great movies but in the end it will leaves hollywood dumber and less original than it before

Call it what you want. Don't do the origin, tell the story in a new and different way.

Just don't do anything that calls back to the earlier films. And when you introduce Doom, make sure he has nothing to do with the original Doom.

Revamps are all secretly Reboots, though, and we all know it. Incredible Hulk even flashed back to the origin, to make sure we knew this wasn't the same series.

EDIT: And why keep Gruffud? He was possibly the weakest link. The others got silly, he was just bland, and never for a second convinced anyone that he was the smartest person in the room.

 

[Willverine]

I, for one, think it would be great if they just hand it over to Judd Apatow and let him work some magic. Will Ferrell as Reed, Elizabeth Banks as Sue, Seth Rogen as Ben and James Franco as Johnny. Give them the deluxe villain package featuring Jonah Hill as the Mole Man, Paul Rudd as Doctor Doom and Steve Carell as Galactus.

Really. I got nothin'.

 

[Gothamite]

Also, I've said many times before, but I hate the limited thought that the only way to "save" a movies series is by rebooting it. F4 has no need to reboot, do we want to see the same damn story redone over and over again? F4 only had two movies and covered those stories fairly well. I mean, like MWoF pointed out, the status quo hasn't really changed enough, the characters have not developed as far as they go. at the end of the second movie Richards and Sue are married and Doom was already established in Latveria. Just go from there and make a new story.

Now a revamp I'm always for, instead of try to redo something you just take it into a new direction. Like get the guy who did Sunshine as director, maybe some casting changes (Evans and Chiklis are great, but definitely change Doom) and go from there.

I agree entirely. The setup and the palate is all there. All you need to do now is change the popcorn with an actual three-course meal and you've got yourself a movie.

I'm the only person in the world who adores Julian McMahon as Doctor Doom, but I can understand why that is. As for Evans and Chiklis, I think it would be a crime to recast them. Gruffudd was a bit corny and Alba is a bit crappy in anything, so fair enough if you want to give them the boot.

 

[Random]

EDIT: And why keep Gruffud? He was possibly the weakest link. The others got silly, he was just bland, and never for a second convinced anyone that he was the smartest person in the room.

I personally didn't fight that bad as Reed. He played the part he was given well, nothing really in his preformance was bad. If they replaced him it would be better but if they kept him I wouldn't complain.

I agree entirely. The setup and the palate is all there. All you need to do now is change the popcorn with an actual three-course meal and you've got yourself a movie.

I'm the only person in the world who adores Julian McMahon as Doctor Doom, but I can understand why that is. As for Evans and Chiklis, I think it would be a crime to recast them. Gruffudd was a bit corny and Alba is a bit crappy in anything, so fair enough if you want to give them the boot.

I should give you **** for liking McMahon as Doom, but I am absolutely in love with Alba and don't care if she's good or not.

 

[ourchair]

Am I the only person that thought Chiklis was awful? Blech.

As I've said before, I think he was a great Ben Grimm, but a lousy Thing.

Also, I don't get all the Gruffudd hate. It's pretty clear to me that Gruffudd had less to do with how uninteresting his character was than the writers, who obviously just didn't know how to write for a character like Reed Richards.

I think writing for Reed Richards is like writing for Spock: You have to make him smart, but you can't make his smarts play off like some deus ex machina where he can figure out everything just because the resolution of the plot calls for it.

But see if its not an origin story, why reboot? It's completely unnecessary when you get the same result with a revamp. The reboot is as bad as the remake, it creates some great movies but in the end it will leaves hollywood dumber and less original than it before

I honestly don't care. Reboot, revamp, they're all just names when what matters is that a new Fantastic Four movie is made, and whether or not it fits with the previous movies is irrelevant, and I'm beginning to feel that trying to identify those labels gets in the way of the more important chore of actually having a decent Fantastic Four movie.

It's not like Arthur Conan Doyle went out of his way to clarify contradictions about character details between each Sherlock Holmes story. He didn't try to justify any errors or follow the path of George Lucas by trying to edit Study in Scarlet and Sign of Four so that their facts are reconciled with his view of the characters at any given moment.

Even Star Trek --- and many other TV shows --- itself made progressive tweaks to their characters before the producers and writers finally decided what they really wanted to do with them for the purposes of the show's themes. As such, I fail to see why it's of paramount importance to maintain a discrete line between what a new movie is and how it relates to the old movie.

 

[The Overlord]

Because it's saying "I'm too stupid to try something new." Also critics don't always see things clearly and sometimes put them up on pedestals and most "fans" review I see have the grammar and maturity of a third grader... a dumb third grader, most of whom just seems to be jumping on a bandwagon. Now out of a large group of friends I can personally vouch that they are general at least semi-intelligent movies goers found both Fantastic Four movies fun and entertaining, not such a travesty that would require the completely unnecessary and lazy approach to reboots.

Well my friends are pretty smart and they thought that movie sucked. So just using your friends as an example

How many times have I explained this and you're still not getting it? A revamp isn't just trudging along with the the same thing, its moving forward in the same continuity just making it better. This can have but not limited to: a new director, new cast, new design department, etc. Think of the Incredible Hulk, if you rephrase a few lines change the beginning montage a bit, it could easily be in the same continuity as Ang Lee's film. Revamps are making the next one better. And in fact many times these "bad" movies leave the characters in a good and interesting setup that could make for a really good sequel. Daredevil is a perfect example of this, I did not like the movie but they left off with Kingpin knowing his identity right there you got a great interesting plot line for a revamped sequel. The F4 sequel has one interesting plot line it created, Doom just had omnipotent power taken away from him by the F4. Imagine someone like Doom who has such an ego that he can't possibly have any fault attains godhood and only to have taken away by Johny Storm. That leaves this character in a much more interesting position for another actor to take up.


See the thing is X-men HAS to do prequels cause they've written their characters into such corners that they can't advance. MWoF's point wasn't about whether the actors portrayed the character in way that you personally liked. It's that these characters are left open enough to continue in any possible direction giving them a prime opportunity for, you guessed it, a revamp.


I think a reboot should only be done after the current series have completely exhausted a good deal characters and storylines and after a decade or so from the last one

Now you are just arguing semantics, a revamp in a reboot, just on a smaller scale, but the fact is everything needs to be revamped, like what they did witht he Hulk movies, recast everyone, hire new writers and a new better director and retool every character. They don't need to do the origin again, but they did change almost everything else and pretend like the first two movies never happened. So it wold be a rebbot in everything but name, like what they did with the hulk.

Because at this point the FF movies weren't given good popcorn movies, they just plain sucked.

 

[Random]

Well my friends are pretty smart and they thought that movie sucked. So just using your friends as an example

So who am I suppose to use as an example? Fans who really go on the internet to anonymously ***** about anything and from what I have observed only because they like bandwagons? Or people who I actually know personally and have great respect for their opinions?

Now you are just arguing semantics, a revamp in a reboot, just on a smaller scale, but the fact is everything needs to be revamped, like what they did witht he Hulk movies, recast everyone, hire new writers and a new better director and retool every character. They don't need to do the origin again, but they did change almost everything else and pretend like the first two movies never happened. So it wold be a rebbot in everything but name, like what they did with the hulk.

Because at this point the FF movies weren't given good popcorn movies, they just plain sucked.

But you see by constantly redoing this you loose this inherent value of the characters, nothing they ever do will matter cause it's just going to be ignored later. By having it in the same contiuity you build on whats already established. And I also think that the dozens of remake films, which in a sense just semantic of a reboot, has proven just because you start from scratch doesn't mean it will be better.

 

[The Overlord]

So who am I suppose to use as an example? Fans who really go on the internet to anonymously ***** about anything and from what I have observed only because they like bandwagons? Or people who I actually know personally and have great respect for their opinions?

What about the fact that both movies scored pretty damn low on the tomato meter? Are film critics opinions completely worthless too? Is the opinions of your friends who I never met more important then theirs. I'm not going to convince you that my friends hated those movies is a relevant fact.

But you see by constantly redoing this you loose this inherent value of the characters, nothing they ever do will matter cause it's just going to be ignored later. By having it in the same contiuity you build on whats already established. And I also think that the dozens of remake films, which in a sense just semantic of a reboot, has proven just because you start from scratch doesn't mean it will be better.

What is established is garbage though, its like morning the loss of Batman and Robin when the series was rebooted with Batman begins, I don't like anything in those films so I don't see any reason to build anything from them. If there was something in those films worth building on, then I would agree with you, but I don't think there is.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

What is established is garbage though, its like morning the loss of Batman and Robin when the series was rebooted with Batman begins, I don't like anything in those films so I don't see any reason to build anything from them. If there was something in those films worth building on, then I would agree with you, but I don't think there is.

Exactly. I agree 100%.

Throw it all out, wait a few more years, then re-establish it as franchise that can actually sustain itself, and be as excellent and awe-inspiring as possible.

 

[E]

Exactly. I agree 100%.

Throw it all out, wait a few more years, then re-establish it as franchise that can actually sustain itself, and be as excellent and awe-inspiring as possible.

I also agree. And I say that having only seen the first one. The 2nd looked like such **** I didn't bother with it.

 

[Void.M]

What needs to be done? Both movies made money and kids love it. In the end that's what matters.

 

[The Overlord]

What needs to be done? Both movies made money and kids love it. In the end that's what matters.

But they were God Awful and the second one didn't do so well, that's why they aren't making a third.

 

[ourchair]

What needs to be done? Both movies made money and kids love it. In the end that's what matters.

The second one made money, but it didn't make THAT much money.

Films have to make more than 10% of their cost back to justify considering a sequel, and nowadays studios won't settle for less than 25% of cost return.