Fix the Ultimate Universe

[The Overlord]

The problem with CoIE is that it was a sloppy reboot. The post-Crisis universe wasn't held under well enough editorial control, the reimaginings of the characters were spread over too prolonged a period, and too many writers tried to tie in as many pre-Crisis aspects of the character, forgetting the critical point of the Crisis in the first place.

The problem with the UU in the first place is it wasn't planned all that well. I'm not saying it wouldn't require some work, but just saying "Oh, it would have to be planned well" isn't an argument against it.

The problem is your assuming that Marvel would be competant enough to plan UU 2, better than UU 1. Frankly I wouldn't take that bet and I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water at this point.

 

[SSJmole]

Also I was thinking the idea how to fix the UU is that most who try to fix it will try making it more like 616 (i think someone mentioned this) Yes my ideas were dumb as well.

I just want to point out that the ultimate universe is best left unchanged. Why because in "fixing" it we make it like the 616 and it's supposed to be different. i see it as Marvel thinking "ok people always say which is better dc or marvel lets make it which do you like better Ultimate or Original"

While doing that they let fans start from scratch who never collected years of comics and allowed old fans an alternate version of what they loved. Yes the UU has its faults but so does the 616 universe

in fixing it we make it more 616 and in away kill the essence of ultimate universe. it is impossible anyway to make a comic universe that has no faults everyone likes and dislikes different things.

A lot on here hated ultimate hobgoblin and carnage. I and a few more enjoyed them. Some like the ultimate six. I think it's the worst one. I used my self as an example not to sway you to my way of thinking but to enlighten on the fact nothing can perfect.

Just let it play out take the good with the bad and enjoy it for what it is. You don't like this about ultimate universe but like that while others will like this and not that.

So you see the ultimate universe does not fixing as it is just different. Don't give up on it and enjoy it.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I would also like to point out they kind of did start an Ultimate U version 2.0 with the Marvel Adventures comics.

Which have so little in the way of continuity references they couldn't possibly contradict each other. Yet.

 

[The Overlord]

Also I was thinking the idea how to fix the UU is that most who try to fix it will try making it more like 616 (i think someone mentioned this) Yes my ideas were dumb as well.

I just want to point out that the ultimate universe is best left unchanged. Why because in "fixing" it we make it like the 616 and it's supposed to be different. i see it as Marvel thinking "ok people always say which is better dc or marvel lets make it which do you like better Ultimate or Original"

While doing that they let fans start from scratch who never collected years of comics and allowed old fans an alternate version of what they loved. Yes the UU has its faults but so does the 616 universe

in fixing it we make it more 616 and in away kill the essence of ultimate universe. it is impossible anyway to make a comic universe that has no faults everyone likes and dislikes different things.

A lot on here hated ultimate hobgoblin and carnage. I and a few more enjoyed them. Some like the ultimate six. I think it's the worst one. I used my self as an example not to sway you to my way of thinking but to enlighten on the fact nothing can perfect.

Just let it play out take the good with the bad and enjoy it for what it is. You don't like this about ultimate universe but like that while others will like this and not that.

So you see the ultimate universe does not fixing as it is just different. Don't give up on it and enjoy it.

But there ways to fix things without copying the 616 universe, like just pretending UIM didn't happen (perhaps even retconning it) or fleshing some of the motives for villains in the UU. Look at what Timm did in DCUA, he took villains that were lame or convoluted (Brainiac, Mr. Freeze, Mad Hatter, Clock King, etc) and made them interesting, smypathetic or threatening. A lot of villains don't have a good motive or are kinda lame characters in the 616 universe, why not make them better characters in the UU? Why not take a character that was just a thug in the 616 universe and make them sympathetic or something (the UU lacks sympathetic villains) or just give them a better motive. Why are ultimate Elctro and Ultimate Sandman criminals, why not do a character study and try develop those guys beyond the role of cannon fodder thugs. This why the throw characters Bendis introduced are so reviled, it is a waste of a prefectly good character (Ultimate scorpion was a total waste).

 

[TwilightEL]

Recently, I posted this on the USM forum, but I'd like to repost it here:

1. Bendis may have no more than one issue per arc where guest stars are given a significant role.

2. Every other year, he may have an arc where guest stars are important, but it must be no longer than six issues.

3. The following exceptions are allowed:
a. Johnny Storm or Kitty Pryde may show up more often if equal time is given to unique supporting characters.
b. In situations where the story is very good and there's a logical reason why another team not only might show up, but would show up, he may detail a brief scene explaining their absence, unless he wants to use up his guest star arc quota for the next two years.

4. Whenever he adds in a guest star, he will actually read comics by other authors to get a feel for their unique voice. He will also run their scenes past their creators and current writers for their approval.
Corollary: Bendis will actually think logically about which characters could beat which characters, and will consult the advice of others instead of going by the "who sells more books" or "what would make the most fanboys have the best orgasm" system. If the plot details that a character will beat another character, and it's not likely, he will think of a creative and plausible reason to explain the incongruity.

5. Every author, not just Bendis, must use DiB's timeline. If they don't like something on it, they can make their own copy and change it, as long as they stick to it.

6. For every five new characters Bendis introduces, he must have one interesting issue or arc elaborating on the character of a character previously introduced.

7. Bendis will try to cut down on his "Bendis dialogue". That means no more multiple exclamation points, no more obscure Yiddish words, no more back-and-forth dialogue that goes nowhere, and no more Spider-Man embarrassing himself so badly that I am torn between clawing my eyes out in sympathetic shame and wanting the Punisher to whoop his ***.

 

[E]

There actually is a Marvel comic that comes close to what an "Ultimate" Marvel should be like.

The Mythos line.

These books are great. They would be better if they were geared more toward adults as far as language and imagery, but these are nice because they are based on the original stories yet get rid of the cheesey 60s stuff. With a little work and planning they could spin it off into an entire line.

As far as I know there are just 3 one-shots - X-Men, Hulk, & Ghost Rider. The art is a painted style by Paolo Rivera (sp?) and has a nice look to it - nothing cartoony like Kubert or Bagley. Like I posted earlier, I think that is essential for reaching a new audience for these characters/stories (i.e. superheroes).

I don't know what the plans are for the line, or if we'll ever see a Spider-Man, Daredevil, or any other Mythos, but I'm telling you they are on the right track. Get the marketing straightened out and PLAN IT OUT instead of just getting names to do whatever they want, and this could be very viable and very good.

 

[E]

Found an article with Paul Jenkins talking about Mythos. Looks like there was at least a plan to do a Spider-Man story. It's a combination of the original origin stories and stuff from the various movies. Apparently at least at one time there was a plan to do at least 8, but I would have thought they'd do one for the Fantastic Four or Punisher already.

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=003673

Now that I think about it, there's another book that should have been used as a blueprint to the UU (and could be if/when they ever decided to fix it) - Marvels.

 

[Ice]

Regarding to the Mythos, I've talked to Paolo about them last year at the con. Like Jenkins said there will be 8, but they will be released one by one as they are finished, rather then worry about soliciting all of them and worrying about delays and what not. 3 are currently out, and more will come as Paolo finishes them up.

 

[thee great one]

Regarding to the Mythos, I've talked to Paolo about them last year at the con. Like Jenkins said there will be 8, but they will be released one by one as they are finished, rather then worry about soliciting all of them and worrying about delays and what not. 3 are currently out, and more will come as Paolo finishes them up.

Which is how it should always be done.

 

[Ninja4peace]

I see what people say about Mythos being like what UU should be like, not trying to re-invent the stories, just telling them as they were in 616 with lovely art. well depends on what you want uu to be. I've only read ghost-rider but I think I'm right in saying they're all painted. I think these work really well as a sort of homage as well as being good one-shots for newbies to comics. Not sure about how I'd feel about making a line out of them tho, that might involve getting more writers maybe straying away from the original too much and also people would put more pressure to see them out on time.

I'd like it if they just took their time and did these 8 really well and they would be like the definitive origins (again) and having a one-shot for each major comic x-men, spidey, hulk etc. Ok I can probably think of a lot more than 8, but i wouldn't want to too many side-characters or b-lists gettting mythos. I think it could end up just making a real nice collection if they kept the quality up. We don't need another crappy universe, we just need to make UU better.

i'd like Mythos for re-telling classic stories (even kept canon with 616) and UU for re-inventing them going a bit crazy and steering away from 616 (kill spidey)


things that annoy me about UU

People get hired to write "filler" arcs...don't put filler in my universe!

Many ultimizations are uninspired, like i figure if they can make the shi'ar race a cult, they could do something better with atlantis..tho i've never been a fan
of namor, but like Moduk and actually lots of the villains juggernaut, sandman could at least bee different to 616

Bendis - See any page in spiderman section (ronin --there's no need for that)

Ultimates tend to introduce villains very late on, but apart from that it's solid, and i guess it's cuz millar wants to spend more time on the character developement rather than just having a big fight every other issue. I probly prefer it that way

A pet peeve of mine is when artists give Reed richards glasses just to make him look clever, i think we know that without someone drawing a pair of glasses on him he doesn't need (stretchy eyeballs) - But it just annoys me how inconsistent that is.

To be honest, I think I'll keep on reading it all for the foreseeable future, and pros still out way cons, I think kirkman's uxm is one of the best runs so far ('cept for magician..but still it was set up in the 2 arcs previous, i think if you go back and read it through in one sitting it fits together nicely), I'm still holding out hope on ultimate power since it has the potential and JMS and Loeb are good writers, Loeb and Frank Miller basically created modern day batman, and there's also real good narrative in superman/batman so I'm looking forward to ults 3.

Also I'm not to bothered about delays, i'd rather they took their time and made it good than just put out **** cuz it'll sell.

 

[Bass]

I think the main flaw with the Ultimate Universe is this:

The writers were unaware of how little the 616 universe offered them as a resource for telling stories. There are several top tier characters who simply introducing for 'the first time' is exciting, but that can only happen once per character, and there number is shockingly limited. This resource has been horrifically wasted with many characters returning as carbon copies of themselves or as an in-joke to the decades old fan community the Ultimate titles are not meant to be targeting. The idea these characters existed before, have their own history and fanbase has made the Ultimate writers lazy, relying on the characters previous existence to carry their stories. What's worse, characters and stories they seemingly think were crap are ultimised. Many ultimizations, rather than exploring characters and reinventing them into better incarnations were used as throwaway parts or were trivialised from their grandeur to be more 'realistic'. The existence of the 616 universe allowed the writers to just use other people's ideas without thinking instead of creating anything new. They stripmined this resource, and without it, the ultimate universe has become stale. Top tier ultimizations like Galactus didn't pay off, and now Thanos seems to be the only big name from 616 not ultimized. Everyone else with name power is done. The Ultimate universe was meant to be a new version of 616, but became a franchise copy because, while it was never supposed to be gimmick, it was written with that short-sighted view.

 

[Lil Brother]

and now Thanos seems to be the only big name from 616 not ultimized.

Uh oh.

Does this mean the UU is royally screwed?

 

[Lynx]

I think the main flaw with the Ultimate Universe is this:

The writers were unaware of how little the 616 universe offered them as a resource for telling stories. There are several top tier characters who simply introducing for 'the first time' is exciting, but that can only happen once per character, and there number is shockingly limited. This resource has been horrifically wasted with many characters returning as carbon copies of themselves or as an in-joke to the decades old fan community the Ultimate titles are not meant to be targeting. The idea these characters existed before, have their own history and fanbase has made the Ultimate writers lazy, relying on the characters previous existence to carry their stories. What's worse, characters and stories they seemingly think were crap are ultimised. Many ultimizations, rather than exploring characters and reinventing them into better incarnations were used as throwaway parts or were trivialised from their grandeur to be more 'realistic'. The existence of the 616 universe allowed the writers to just use other people's ideas without thinking instead of creating anything new. They stripmined this resource, and without it, the ultimate universe has become stale. Top tier ultimizations like Galactus didn't pay off, and now Thanos seems to be the only big name from 616 not ultimized. Everyone else with name power is done. The Ultimate universe was meant to be a new version of 616, but became a franchise copy because, while it was never supposed to be gimmick, it was written with that short-sighted view.

Thanos was ultimitized. Current UFF arc.

Anyways, I agree with everything you just said. Sad thing is, I don't believe it can be saved at this point hence why I'm dropping it as soon as I read Ultimates 2 #13.

 

[Scarecrow]

First, let me say I realize that none of this will likely mean anything coming from someone who doesn't have any reputation at all, but think of me as a committed fan like yourself rather than a "noob".

I'd like to say that I agree, the Universe is losing whatever appeal it had when first introduced. Do I think it can be saved?

No.

Do I think it should be ended, and revamped as a new, better, ideal universe? Yes, I do. But do I think it would actually work? Doubtful.

The effort would recquire a stellar "think-tank" of writers, ones who aren't in it for money, prestige, or titles, and write because they thrive off of their creativity and desire to tell an epic story and satisfy that need to tell said story. Which, like the true fans, they should have. But no, I do not see this happenning, as there are far too many things that could go awry. Even if there was a "core team" that did nothing but the New Ultimate Universe, discussing every small occurrence, every ramification, every panel together, at least one them would seek something else from the endeavor, deeming it more important that the endeavor itself, and the Universe would slowly fail. A slow decline, but failure nonetheless.

I want to point out that Marvel has failed in the Ultimate Universe, but more importantly, has failed me. Immediately following the release of Ultimates 2 #13, I'm dropping all Ultimate titles, which is a shame as they are all I really have a huge dedication to. I first picked the Ultimate Universe comics up because I went through some pretty God-awful events, and they became my safety net. I hate that Marvel seems to be taking that away from me by not considering the story, or the fans.

I apologize for my rant, but not for how I feel about this. See ya'.

 

[E]

First, let me say I realize that none of this will likely mean anything coming from someone who doesn't have any reputation at all, but think of me as a committed fan like yourself rather than a "noob".

I'd like to say that I agree, the Universe is losing whatever appeal it had when first introduced. Do I think it can be saved?

No.

Do I think it should be ended, and revamped as a new, better, ideal universe? Yes, I do. But do I think it would actually work? Doubtful.

The effort would recquire a stellar "think-tank" of writers, ones who aren't in it for money, prestige, or titles, and write because they thrive off of their creativity and desire to tell an epic story and satisfy that need to tell said story. Which, like the true fans, they should have. But no, I do not see this happenning, as there are far too many things that could go awry. Even if there was a "core team" that did nothing but the New Ultimate Universe, discussing every small occurrence, every ramification, every panel together, at least one them would seek something else from the endeavor, deeming it more important that the endeavor itself, and the Universe would slowly fail. A slow decline, but failure nonetheless.

I want to point out that Marvel has failed in the Ultimate Universe, but more importantly, has failed me. Immediately following the release of Ultimates 2 #13, I'm dropping all Ultimate titles, which is a shame as they are all I really have a huge dedication to. I first picked the Ultimate Universe comics up because I went through some pretty God-awful events, and they became my safety net. I hate that Marvel seems to be taking that away from me by not considering the story, or the fans.

I apologize for my rant, but not for how I feel about this. See ya'.

*applauds*

 

[Bass]

First, let me say I realize that none of this will likely mean anything coming from someone who doesn't have any reputation at all, but think of me as a committed fan like yourself rather than a "noob".

I'd like to say that I agree, the Universe is losing whatever appeal it had when first introduced. Do I think it can be saved?

No.

Do I think it should be ended, and revamped as a new, better, ideal universe? Yes, I do. But do I think it would actually work? Doubtful.

The effort would recquire a stellar "think-tank" of writers, ones who aren't in it for money, prestige, or titles, and write because they thrive off of their creativity and desire to tell an epic story and satisfy that need to tell said story. Which, like the true fans, they should have. But no, I do not see this happenning, as there are far too many things that could go awry. Even if there was a "core team" that did nothing but the New Ultimate Universe, discussing every small occurrence, every ramification, every panel together, at least one them would seek something else from the endeavor, deeming it more important that the endeavor itself, and the Universe would slowly fail. A slow decline, but failure nonetheless.

I want to point out that Marvel has failed in the Ultimate Universe, but more importantly, has failed me. Immediately following the release of Ultimates 2 #13, I'm dropping all Ultimate titles, which is a shame as they are all I really have a huge dedication to. I first picked the Ultimate Universe comics up because I went through some pretty God-awful events, and they became my safety net. I hate that Marvel seems to be taking that away from me by not considering the story, or the fans.

I apologize for my rant, but not for how I feel about this. See ya'.

I agree with everything save the assumption that the current creative teams are in it soley for money or prestige and not creativity. I believe they are in it for all three. I think the problem is that they just simply, are not very good. It's not like they're actively writing to piss people off, they think they're doing good, but it seems that there is no one pointing out the continuing mistakes that they're doing. They're all trying hard and this seems to be the best they can do, which is really rather pathetic.

Basically, it doesn't feel like artists making the titles, but it just feels like poor fanfiction. I agree - I think the Ultimate line needs better writers and editors.

I hope you continue to post!

 

[E]

I hope you continue to post!

Agreed - I hate the thought that the downward spiral of the UU would prevent people from joining and/or posting.

*contemplates name change again*

 

[Lynx]

Agreed - I hate the thought that the downward spiral of the UU would prevent people from joining and/or posting.

*contemplates name change again*

I agree. Scarecrow, excellent post.

I've since switched interests from comics to tabletop games since it gives ME the ability to control the events (And I have an excellent group of friends, including my girlfriend, who are supportive of my tales). I still read a few Vertigo comics (Fables is at the forefront), but, like you've said, the Ultimate Universe is simply trash now and there's no way in its current incarnation that I think its fixable.

I think Kirkman and Carey are doing their damnedest to write good stories, but I think Bendis is just going for shock factor. And what I've seen of Loeb's Ultimates 3 seems to be going down a similar path.

 

[Scarecrow]

Bass is right. That is a perfect way to put it. In fact, I'm sure if Marvel handed the pen to "creative teams" picked out of the U.C., the experiment would yield similiar results to what the Ultimate U. is now. We'd get wacky, twisted results with many gay jokes, ROFLCOPTERS, and the development of the Ultimate Knights for the sole purpose of killing them off, just to make fan-boys outraged.

And yes, the editors are even worse. Maybe they aren't quite sure what their job description is, only that the title sounds nice. They need to start actually being involved in the process of creating each story, rather than talking about how great it is in press releases and then supporting it afterwards, when clearly fans are unhappy with the results.

Wait...maybe the U.C. SHOULD take command of Marvel. We could stage a coup and everything, dressed as our favorite Ultimate Character. Dibs on Magneto Ock.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Bass is right. That is a perfect way to put it. In fact, I'm sure if Marvel handed the pen to "creative teams" picked out of the U.C., the experiment would yield similiar results to what the Ultimate U. is now. We'd get wacky, twisted results with many gay jokes, ROFLCOPTERS, and the development of the Ultimate Knights for the sole purpose of killing them off, just to make fan-boys outraged.

And yes, the editors are even worse. Maybe they aren't quite sure what their job description is, only that the title sounds nice. They need to start actually being involved in the process of creating each story, rather than talking about how great it is in press releases and then supporting it afterwards, when clearly fans are unhappy with the results.

Wait...maybe the U.C. SHOULD take command of Marvel. We could stage a coup and everything, dressed as our favorite Ultimate Character. Dibs on Magneto Ock.

Oh yeah. This member shows great promise. I pronounce DSF as his UC mentor.


Do great things my son......