DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
moonmaster said:
And its these same reasons which make Superman a whiny ***** in my view. If it weren't for his super-strength, what Doomsday did to him would be a daily occurence courtesy of local truckers.
Hawkeye: Human, Mutant, technology?
- Thread starter Hawkeye101
- Start date
And its these same reasons which make Superman a whiny ***** in my view. If it weren't for his super-strength, what Doomsday did to him would be a daily occurence courtesy of local truckers.
I blame Marvel more than OSC (although I haven't decided I completely 100% hate his UIM story yet. I'm leaning that way, but I'm not all the way there like a lot of you are). Marvel went after him, not the other way around, and Card admitted that he had never even heard of Iron Man before Marvel pitched him on it. Seriously, that's what he claims.DIrishB said:
If that's the truth, he might have also not understood just how important continuity was to comic book readers, and obviously Marvel didn't clue him in either.
Bass
Nexus of the World
icemastertron said:
Sorry, I meant to say, "It looked like it was shallow, pointless, and obvious." I've not read it.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
14rdb said:
Thats a good point, which is why some of my ire is directed at the Ultimate editors as well (who screw up on a regular basis so its no big surprise) but there isn't a whole lot of material with Ultimate Iron Man in it. The Ultimates series (vol. 1 & 2), UMTU #4-5, USM #28, and a few other guest appearances...he could have only looked the the first Ultimates volume and UMTU #4-5 and gotten enough info to write his story with. And he could have still done virtually ANYTHING he wanted, yet he managed to make it as different and screwed-up as possible. I have a hard time believing this was totally on accident. One, it was established Tony had siblings and a mother in the UMTU issues. Two, it was made clear he was a child prodigy who became famous for appearing on game shows. In Card's Ultimate Iron Man mini, Tony is an only child who's mother dies giving birth to him. He lives in basically seclusion with his father, and doesn't go on any game shows whatsoever. Now I admit, overall Card's mini isn't horrible, but his total disregard for what came before stinks the story up like last weeks garbage. Then he goes and makes Tony's brain all over his body? WTF? I know the guy's smart, but if his brain were scattered all over his body, he should be fricking omniscient and omnipotent. He should have all sorts of telepathic/psychic powers, etc. But in the mini he's only "really smart", capable of things someone with a normal sized brain coud concievably do just by using a bit more of their brain power than the average human. Not only did Card totally screw up continuity even more (the last thing the Ultimate books need), but his reasoning and storytelling don't make any sense. Is Tony's extra brain tissue just useless? It would appear that way. And its also obvious Millar never intended for Tony's brain to be all over his body, otherwise a brain tumor wouldn't be lethal by any means. But Card went ahead and ignored that too (which is basically the best series in all of the Ultimate universe by just about anyone's standards). Point is, Card sucks (and so do the Ultimate editors).
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
That's crap. One of a writer/creator's top priorities should be keeping in check the mythology they're writing for. I mean **** it's not that hard!!!!!!!!!! It's my biggest pet peeve.
We really need a seperate thread for UIM discussion.
We really need a seperate thread for UIM discussion.
Hawkeye101
Well-Known Member
DIrishB said:
I'm sorry I didn't start reading Ultimte lines until after So many of them were trades. (I believe Spider-Man was in the middle of Irresponsibility). I cannot find UTU Vol. 1 any where. I'd love to know what the Wolverine, Hulk and Iron Man stories say. However, It's still not too late for Tony to appear on game shows and Still not too late for many things (except living accross the hall from Reed in College, I do know about that, and UFF screwed that one up, not OSC). And as for that tumor, he could have just been told it was leathal. And who knows? Maybe Millar regrets giving Tony a leathal disease, and wanted a way to protect Tony from dying from it. Cuz, personally, I don't want to see Iron Man re-placed with anyone else. If you ask me the lamest thing the Ultimate Universe has done is the Union, Excalibur, with European super-humans, instread of all mutants besides Captain Britian, would have been a better idea. The next most rediculous thing they've one is give Natasha her own Iron-outfit. Half the reason I like her is because she's eye candy! I don't want that obstructed by an Iron outfit! All I'm sayin' is OSC isn't as bad as you all make him out to be, he hasn't screwed up the continuity from what I see, and there are worse things written. I do however, believe that Ultimates is the best series in comic books ever!
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
Hawkeye101 said:
Its definitly too late for him to still have a mother and siblings.
Look, do you know anything about writing? You don't make a major decision about a character like that and then just change your mind after its been put to paper and print. Doesn't work that way, especially with Millar. And its obvious the tumor thing is going to be explored further since Loeb specifically said he'll be addressing it in Ultimates 3.
Good for you.
All I (and most others) are saying is that Card is as bad as we make him out to be, and thats only exploring his professional history. We won't even get into his homophobic, sad little views. The guys a bigot and a moron as far as I'm concerned. And if you agree about the Ultimates being the best series in comics ever, than why aren't you offended by Card's total disregard of one of its major characters origins?
You still haven't answered my question about Tony's brain matter? If your beloved Card meant for him to have his entire body be a brain, why isn't Tony showing actual signs of this instead of just being a genius? Any normal sized human brain is capable of being at genius level, so it stands to reason a brain which is almost as big as your entire body would be capable of things we can't even imagine (hence the God-like powers). If Card knew what the hell he was talking about he'd have addressed this issue. Better yet, since thats not Iron Man by any means, he should have left well enough alone and kept his brain normal size, or at most slightly bigger than an average humans.
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ourchair
Well-Known Member
HA! So you say. It's all part of your sneaky anti-UIM propaganda war, you manipulative devil, you.UltimateE said:
Just playing devil's advocate here (and it's not that easy so cut me some slack :wink: ).
So much of UMTU has already been discounted, and yet, some of it has obviously been supported. It's almost pick and choose as to what's canon and what's not. That might have been explained to OSC by the Ultimate editors (and maybe created his lack of concern with continuity in the first place). "Here's Tony's background, although some of it has already been proven false in other titles. Use what's left if you want, but if you have a completely different idea, don't feel obligated to be restrained by it. If you choose not to it would just mean more out of continuity UMTU, no big deal."
OSC hasn't really explained how the 'expanded brain' thing works. I mean, the neural cells throughout his body still have to perform the functions that the normal cells would (that is, work as muscle tissue, organs, blood, etc.), so it can't be as if his body is just packed with full-on brain matter.
And your brain is separated into various areas that perform certain functions. Maybe, the cells outside of his head work in a similar fashion to stuffing a ton of extra RAM into your computer: it will perform a number of tasks much quicker than it would otherwise but it won't really work 'differently' than if you had less RAM (i.e. just being really, really smart rather than psychic or something like that).
And he is 'smart' on what seems to be a superhuman or near superhuman level. His 'Irontech' technology is apparently far beyond the comprehension of even huge collective groups such as nations. Even working in close proximity with Iron Man for an extended period of time apparently hasn't allowed S.H.I.E.L.D. to figure it out and they're able to create some truly fantastic technology of their own (weapons that neutralize powers, invisibility devices, etc.). S.H.I.E.L.D. was all too happy to create their Rocketmen (ultimate Mandroids anyone?) based on some old Iron Man designs Tony provided them with.
Also, didn't Fury once say that Stark's intellect freaked him out more than the other powers of the Ultimates (or something along those lines, I don't feel like digging through the issues right now)?
Finally on the brain tumor thing -- his unique situation might actually make him more susceptible to tumors and much harder for even the best doctors to do anything about it. If they've never seen a case like Tony's, they might be puzzled how to address it. Also, just because he has a 'lot of brain,' that doesn't necessarily mean that a tumor can't be fatal. As I said earlier, the brain's functioning is split up and if the tumor is destined to damage an especially key area, no matter the size of the rest of his brain, that could be all she wrote. And even though people have a lot of skin by area, people die from skin cancer all the time.
Anyway, a lot of his ideas (as well as my weak supporting ones) are clearly based on 'bad science' but so is the entire Ultimate Universe (and any other one featuring superheroes who fly, throw cars around, or move things with their mind).
So much of UMTU has already been discounted, and yet, some of it has obviously been supported. It's almost pick and choose as to what's canon and what's not. That might have been explained to OSC by the Ultimate editors (and maybe created his lack of concern with continuity in the first place). "Here's Tony's background, although some of it has already been proven false in other titles. Use what's left if you want, but if you have a completely different idea, don't feel obligated to be restrained by it. If you choose not to it would just mean more out of continuity UMTU, no big deal."
OSC hasn't really explained how the 'expanded brain' thing works. I mean, the neural cells throughout his body still have to perform the functions that the normal cells would (that is, work as muscle tissue, organs, blood, etc.), so it can't be as if his body is just packed with full-on brain matter.
And your brain is separated into various areas that perform certain functions. Maybe, the cells outside of his head work in a similar fashion to stuffing a ton of extra RAM into your computer: it will perform a number of tasks much quicker than it would otherwise but it won't really work 'differently' than if you had less RAM (i.e. just being really, really smart rather than psychic or something like that).
And he is 'smart' on what seems to be a superhuman or near superhuman level. His 'Irontech' technology is apparently far beyond the comprehension of even huge collective groups such as nations. Even working in close proximity with Iron Man for an extended period of time apparently hasn't allowed S.H.I.E.L.D. to figure it out and they're able to create some truly fantastic technology of their own (weapons that neutralize powers, invisibility devices, etc.). S.H.I.E.L.D. was all too happy to create their Rocketmen (ultimate Mandroids anyone?) based on some old Iron Man designs Tony provided them with.
Also, didn't Fury once say that Stark's intellect freaked him out more than the other powers of the Ultimates (or something along those lines, I don't feel like digging through the issues right now)?
Finally on the brain tumor thing -- his unique situation might actually make him more susceptible to tumors and much harder for even the best doctors to do anything about it. If they've never seen a case like Tony's, they might be puzzled how to address it. Also, just because he has a 'lot of brain,' that doesn't necessarily mean that a tumor can't be fatal. As I said earlier, the brain's functioning is split up and if the tumor is destined to damage an especially key area, no matter the size of the rest of his brain, that could be all she wrote. And even though people have a lot of skin by area, people die from skin cancer all the time.
Anyway, a lot of his ideas (as well as my weak supporting ones) are clearly based on 'bad science' but so is the entire Ultimate Universe (and any other one featuring superheroes who fly, throw cars around, or move things with their mind).
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ourchair
Well-Known Member
I'd like to see Orson Scott Card's brain matter cut into little itty bitty pieces.UltimateE said:
I've always felt that continuity is always in a constant retcon anyway, so I have no problem with this line of logic. You don't even need to shift into 'fanon' mode for this to hold true.14rdb said:
My belief is that any comic that directly contradicts the past takes precedence unless it destroys any kind of dramatic weight. Which is why it doesn't matter if Peter Parker used to listen to twist records when he was a teenager or if a later issue says he listened to eight tracks, or if Tony was in the Vietnam War or Gulf War.
Superhero continuity is always in a constant state of present tense, so why should we regard old back issues any differently?
Pandrio
Well-Known Member
I haven't read it, but from what I've heard, I think UltimateE said it best.Hawkeye101 said:
"Ultimate Iron Man mini is the worst thing ever written" or something like that.
Now, that does state that there aren't worse things written. It screws up Continuity, just give it up it does, and it supposedly isn't written well, so stop defending this crap!!!!!!
OK got that out of my system. Now I'm all smiles :lol:
.
Pandrio
Well-Known Member
If it has anything to do with writing stuff about something I haven't read, I'd say Orson Scott Card. :lol:14rdb said:
Pandrio
Well-Known Member
OK, yay, whatever, I mean I don't really care, if you want to, I don't need to know
TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
14rdb said:
Most of UMTU wasn't disproved at all, though Card's mini has done exactly that. With the exception of UMTU #9, which isn't considered canon anyway since its a "joke" issue, it fits. But now with UIM, it kind of either disproves UMTU #4-5 (at least the Tony origin mentions) or UIM itself. Why must I keep repeating this?
True, but from the way its explained what I said still applies. Its useless to have Tony's body full of brain cells otherwise when the same level of intelligence could have been accomplished with a normal sized brain, etc.
I don't really buy that. With the vast amount of extra nueral matter, he should be capable of more than just accelerated and enhanced thought processes, as I said stuff like telepathic/psychic abilities.
This is true, but its still only a slightly more advanced form of mechanical/robotic technology, with certain biological interactions. Reed Richards should theoretically be capable of the same (and in an entirely different forum is).
Yup, something like that, and it is indeed freaky, just not believable in the sense that if he has nueral tissue all over his body it should go WAY beyond that.
This is a good point, but in terms of the skin cancer comparison thats usually because it metastisizes and infects other organs with cancerous cells, so not really the same thing.
This is also true, and by itself I have no problem with the body full of brain tissue, just the continuity problems that arise from that and Card's total disregard for anything else Iron Man has appeared in.
14rdb said:
Pandrio said:
Exactly my point.
Pandrio
Well-Known Member
I thought about pointing out that only #9 was out of continuity, but I figured you liked explaining it. :lol:
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
Pandrio said:
Not anymore...I wouldn't mind but I keep having to explain the same things to the same people...its to the point I'm ready to say "Screw it!" and just give up on the whole timeline thing.
