Hawkeye's Revenge (Ults. 2 spoilers) [sensitive matter]

[E.Vi.L.]

If the recordings have been seriously tampered with, it can also explain why Nick Fury didn't revoke or reset all of the codes Hawkeye knew - say the altered recordings show Hawkeye being shot in the head or several times point-blank in the chest. He isn't going to survive that, no matter what medical miracle gets invoked. Hence, no reason to change the codes.

Excellent point.

 

[E]

Why would they show the same cuff's on a trenchcoat, if it wasn't the same person?

That's not proof.

And tampered recordings are certainly possible if not likely. The tapes themselves might not even need to be touched. If Loki can "shuffle reality" there's no reason he couldn't "adjust" the tapes.

 

[Guijllons]

While we're on this topic (I have no idea what the original point was about really), I'll stick my ore in.

The meeting with Hank and the traitor, the traitor says "Oh Hank", this is something that really swung my thinking about to the sex of the traitor to being female. I'm quite certain that that meeting was Hank and Widow.

Hawkeye's place though, the traitor says "Now you're just being stupid soldier". Man, that doesn't sound like Widow to me, that sounds like Cap.

I don't know what happened to the tapes, or what anyone really saw, but I think it's too early to say for certain that it was Widow that pulled the trigger.

 

[DIrishB]

Gotta go with good old George Carlin on this one. Porky Pig raping Petunia Pig. Admit it, the idea made you smile in a "oh god thats so wrong" kind of way.

I love George Carlin. I still have one of my dad's old comedy records of his entitled "Toledo Window Box". Great comedian.

So I guess Hank wasn't talking to Black Widow either? Whoever was talking to Hank killed Hawkeye's family. There's one traitor, it was Widow.

How do you know that the person Hank was talking to was one in the same with the one who killed Hawkeye's family? Hawkeye looking at the killer and seeming to recognize them could also imply the Colonel dude dressing up as Cap, hence Cap appearing on the videotape and him recognizing him. There's no proof whatsoever as far as I know they were one in the same.

As as far as I'm concerned, the cameras were tampered with, so there's no need for a Cap look alike to have been on the scene. Even without super science you can do incredible fakes. Now if you have S.H.I.E.L.D. level technology... You surely can do a better fake on what must have been digital images than with a disguise.

With SHIELD technology, wouldn't you also be able to prove the tape was tampered with in the first place?

The killer in #7 shows a gloved hand which isn't part Steve's normal attire so obviously it wasn't a full blown disguise anyway. And which is identical to that of the traitor talking to Pym in #6.

And the killer says : "Big Surprise?" which implies familiarity.

Good points, but it could be as simple as someone wearing the Cap uniform with the tenchcoat over it, a ploy by Millar to evoke familiarity to the reader its the same person before the reveal, even if it isn't.

That's not proof.

And tampered recordings are certainly possible if not likely. The tapes themselves might not even need to be touched. If Loki can "shuffle reality" there's no reason he couldn't "adjust" the tapes.

Another very likely possibility. He was in on the whole plot anyway, including the framing of Thor and Cap.

I don't know what happened to the tapes, or what anyone really saw, but I think it's too early to say for certain that it was Widow that pulled the trigger.

I agree.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

With SHIELD technology, wouldn't you also be able to prove the tape was tampered with in the first place?

Probably. If they had sent the images to the labs. I briefly adressed this in my previous post.

The bad guys cut the first cameras and so Fury assumed they didn't know about the second set of cameras. So he bought what he saw as gospel and didn't double check.

I used a similar ploy while training for the armed force reserve.

We were learning to use booby traps. I set my detonator to work through pressure, used a wooden plank to increase the area of contact and buried it carefully in a hard to access area. See, I knew that other trainees would be sent to find my trap and I felt if they worked hard to even find it they would be easier to fool. So I made it hard to find. And I used a trip wire. The detonator could be set to work with a tripwire and it was rather popular amongst the other trainees. So Inside a bush I tied a tripwire from one branch to another. Complete red herring, but one that would take you over my pressure plate if you went to investigate.

The other trainees spent almost 30 minutes looking for my trap, so when they spotted the tripwire, they figured that had found the trap. And they stepped right onto my pressure plank and *boom* Gotcha.

I was the only trainee to successfully trap another team. Quite proud of it.

Moral of the story : If you make your opponent work hard to uncover your lies instead of telling him, he'll believe the first red herring to be the truth. Because he feels like *he* found it and therefore it is somehow more trustworthy than if it had been obvious. Won't even think twice about it.

Works well in Poker too as a matter of fact. Everyone likes to think they are smart so the trick is to make them feel like they are outplaying you and they'll talk themselve into busting out on a weak hand. Fury did exactly that, if you ask me.

 

[E]

Probably. If they had sent the images to the labs. I briefly adressed this in my previous post.

The bad guys cut the first cameras and so Fury assumed they didn't know about the second set of cameras. So he bought what he saw as gospel and didn't double check.

I used a similar ploy while training for the armed force reserve.

We were learning to use booby traps. I set my detonator to work through pressure, used a wooden plank to increase the area of contact and buried it carefully in a hard to access area. See, I knew that other trainees would be sent to find my trap and I felt if they worked hard to even find it they would be easier to fool. So I made it hard to find. And I used a trip wire. The detonator could be set to work with a tripwire and it was rather popular amongst the other trainees. So Inside a bush a tied a tripwire from one branch to another. Complete red herring, it did nothing except being easier to spot than the pressure plate.

The other trainees spent 15 minutes looking for my trap, so when they spotted the tripwire, they figured that had found the trap. And they stepped right onto my pressure plank and *boom*

I was the only trainee to successfully trap another team. Quite proud of it.

Moral of the story : If you make your opponent work to find the truth instead of telling him, he'll think he got it as soon as he hits what seems to be the payload. Won't even think twice about it.

:shock:

Very good parallel.

 

[DIrishB]

Probably. If they had sent the images to the labs. I briefly adressed this in my previous post.

The bad guys cut the first cameras and so Fury assumed they didn't know about the second set of cameras. So he bought what he saw as gospel and didn't double check.

I used a similar ploy while training for the armed force reserve.

We were learning to use booby traps. I set my detonator to work through pressure, used a wooden plank to increase the area of contact and buried it carefully in a hard to access area. See, I knew that other trainees would be sent to find my trap and I felt if they worked hard to even find it they would be easier to fool. So I made it hard to find. And I used a trip wire. The detonator could be set to work with a tripwire and it was rather popular amongst the other trainees. So Inside a bush I tied a tripwire from one branch to another. Complete red herring, but one that would take you over my pressure plate if you went to investigate.

The other trainees spent almost 30 minutes looking for my trap, so when they spotted the tripwire, they figured that had found the trap. And they stepped right onto my pressure plank and *boom* Gotcha.

I was the only trainee to successfully trap another team. Quite proud of it.

Moral of the story : If you make your opponent work hard to uncover your lies instead of telling him, he'll believe the first red herring to be the truth. Because he feels like *he* found it and therefore it is somehow more trustworthy than if it had been obvious. Won't even think twice about it.

Works well in Poker too as a matter of fact. Everyone likes to think they are smart so the trick is to make them feel like they are outplaying you and they'll talk themselve into busting out on a weak hand. Fury did exactly that, if you ask me.

I love poker. Thats about all I can say in reply, sorry.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

I love poker. Thats about all I can say in reply, sorry.

Then you know the best traps are those where you let your opponent convince himself he has the better hand.

Check calling when you have a flush draw on the flop and then checking on 4th street when a third card of the same suit hit the board won't get you much action from an experienced player. That's too obvious and only works well against agressive amateurs. But if you make a weak bet on the flop and then overbet the pot on 4th street when you hit your flush, it's quite possible a smart opponent will convince himself you are bluffing and he still has the best hand. Let them think themselves to death is my motto.

You can relate to that?

 

[DIrishB]

Then you know the best traps are those where you let your opponent convince himself he has the better hand.

Check calling when you have a flush draw on the flop and then checking on 4th street when a third card of the same suit hit the board won't get you much action from an experienced player. That's too obvious and only works well against agressive amateurs. But if you make a weak bet on the flop and then overbet the pot on 4th street when you hit your flush, it's quite possible a smart opponent will convince himself you are bluffing and he still has the best hand. Let them think themselves to death is my motto.

You can relate to that?

I'm one of those people that's hard to read, so either way I end up having an advantage. I'm also not one of those people who has to use the "obscure poker lingo" to convince others I know what I'm doing.

 

[John Q. Public]

Lamest trap ever. Zzzzzzz.

 

[moonmaster]

So, has everyone just forgotten about Loki?

I know its a lame explaination for the tape, but it makes sense and it would be the quickest explaination considering that we're "all up in" the Grand Finale.

 

[DIrishB]

So, has everyone just forgotten about Loki?

I know its a lame explaination for the tape, but it makes sense and it would be the quickest explaination considering that we're "all up in" the Grand Finale.

I'm positive it was Loki who tampered with the tapes, especially if SHIELD didn't find any evidence of the tapes being tampered with.

 

[Ice]

I'm positive it was Loki who tampered with the tapes, especially if SHIELD didn't find any evidence of the tapes being tampered with.

Which also proves that Thor isn't crazy. Unless they believe the whole word is crazy. :wink:

 

[moonmaster]

Which also proves that Thor isn't crazy. Unless they believe the whole word is crazy. :wink:

Considering that Loki was speaking with the Anti-Ultimates, I think we can say he and Thor are real.

 

[Ice]

Considering that Loki was speaking with the Anti-Ultimates, I think we can say he and Thor are real.

Exactly.

 

[DIrishB]

Considering that Loki was speaking with the Anti-Ultimates, I think we can say he and Thor are real.

Yup. And that his hair is in fact just a wig.

 

[John Q. Public]

While on the subject of Hawkeye exacting revenge on Widow, I'd like to express my faith in Millar not to even imply rape as part of the payback deal.

Yes, she probably deserves it more than any other female comic character who has been subjected to it EVER, quite frankly.

And yes, it IS a crime of violence rather than a crime of passion.

But not only would it be horribly out of character for Hawkeye (torture-induced trauma notwithstanding) it would just needlessly amp up the gratuity level beyond what it's already reached by showing the ostensible Good Guys to be not above the same level of depravity as the designated antagonists.

Do you think Millar and Hitch would go there?

AHEM! Lamest trap ever.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

I'm one of those people that's hard to read, so either way I end up having an advantage. I'm also not one of those people who has to use the "obscure poker lingo" to convince others I know what I'm doing.

:lol:

I play mostly play online, btw. Only way to get a lot of action at reasonable stakes anytime you have some free time. So I don't care how hard you are to read! And there was nothing obscure about my "linguo". You know poker, you understood what I said. I am especially fond of that kind of trap since it won me my biggest hand at the final table of my biggest tournament yet.

---

Loki could have changed the tape. Perhaps. But then cutting the first set of cameras becomes a less useful move. If you don't cut the first set, Fury will be suspicious and have the image checked closer. But if you are the mighty god of mischief, no lab rat will notice anything wrong and the resulting test labs would make for an even stronger proof that Cap is guilty.

Also, Loki didn't seem involved with the traitors maneuvers, judging by his conversation with Thor in #5.

It's true that Loki is now definitely not a figment of Thor's imagination. But if Thor is the true god of Thunder, how come he is now powerless and the bald guy that looks like DIrishB has all his powers?

Thor said : "These powers are neither mutant nor machine, human."

Yeah, well, at this point, it seems that these powers are "Machine" all right.

More explanation is needed and I'm eager to get it in #10.

 

[DIrishB]

Which also proves that Thor isn't crazy. Unless they believe the whole word is crazy. :wink:

Well, the whole world is crazy. But that doesn't discount the fact that...

Considering that Loki was speaking with the Anti-Ultimates, I think we can say he and Thor are real.

It's true that Loki is now definitely not a figment of Thor's imagination. But if Thor is the true god of Thunder, how come he is now powerless and the bald guy that looks like DIrishB has all his powers?

Because Loki can manipulate reality any way he sees fit, including stripping Thor of his powers by making them dependant on the harness/belt, and granting it to the bald guy (who does bear a striking resemblance to me).

Why does everyone keep forgetting that?

 

[E.Vi.L.]

Because Loki can manipulate reality any way he sees fit, including stripping Thor of his powers by making them dependant on the harness/belt, and granting it to the bald guy (who does bear a striking resemblance to me).

Why does everyone keep forgetting that?

Because that's not a power, that's a plot device. If he's that powerful, the heroes have already lost. He might as well manipulate reality so that every hero that might oppose him are now gone in a puff. He could manipulate reality so that the super serum never existed and poof, no Cap, no Hulk and most likely no Spidey and anything linked to Oz. He manipulates reality so that the X-gene result in a mutation that isn't viable and boom, no mutants.

He wants mischief? Give me reality warping power like those and I'll give you perpetual war with no way to stop it and no need to risk myself. I'll change the constitution so that Bush is president for life. Boom.