Hawkeye's Revenge (Ults. 2 spoilers) [sensitive matter]

[DIrishB]

Because that's not a power, that's a plot device.

Whatever you want to call it, thats what he's capable of. He can shift reality however he wants, including stripping fellow Gods of their powers.

If he's that powerful, the heroes have already lost. He might as well manipulate reality so that every hero that might oppose him are now gone in a puff. He could manipulate reality so that the super serum never existed and poof, no Cap, no Hulk and most likely no Spidey and anything linked to Oz. He manipulates reality so that the X-gene result in a mutation that isn't viable and boom, no mutants.

But where's the fun in that?

He wants mischief? Give me reality warping power like those and I'll give you perpetual war with no way to stop it and no need to risk myself. I'll change the constitution so that Bush is president for life. Boom.

He can warp reality, on all levels. End of story.

 

[E]

Because that's not a power, that's a plot device. If he's that powerful, the heroes have already lost. He might as well manipulate reality so that every hero that might oppose him are now gone in a puff.

Agreed. What I liked about Loki was that even though he seems to have a power like this, all he ever cared about was his "game" with Thor. Otherwise it's too heavy to deal with. Unless we're looking at a Scarlet Witch/Loki showdown - which would be anticlimatic.

 

[SeAcoW]

besides, she's a woman. what the hell is she gonna do, knit him a sweater? not give him sex that night?

As far as i know Widow is a better shooter then hawkeye and has kicked more CQC *** then he would. Hawkeye just can't take her down sorry.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

He can warp reality, on all levels. End of story.

How do we know that? That wasn't even his powers in 616.

Despite being a member of the Frost Giants, Loki possessed similar attributes to those possessed by the Asgardians.

Loki possessed a degree of superhuman strength that seemed to be roughly equal to that of the average male Asgardian and could lift roughly 30 tons. Loki aged at a rate vastly slower than human beings and was extremely long lived, though he didn't possess the completely retarded aging process of other god pantheons, such as the Olympians. Loki's body was immune to all known Earthly diseases and infections and was possessed some degree of invulnerability to physical injury. Loki, at times, imbued himself with magical abilities that enable him to withstand injuries that would prove fatal to another Asgardian, such as being beheaded. Loki's Frost Giant metabolism granted him superhuman levels of physical stamina in practically all activities.

Loki possessed the ability to generate and control a great quantity of mystical abilities for a variety of purposes. He could project powerful beams of concussive force, the creation of highly durable magical force fields, the temporary increase of his own physical strength and stamina, granting superhuman abilities to living beings or inanimate objects, to fly at great speeds, interdimensional teleportation, etc.

Apparently, Loki possessed some extrasensory abilities that resembled psionic powers. For instance, Loki could project his thoughts across great distances, even across dimensional barriers. However, Loki could not read the minds of other beings, nor could he control their actions.

Sure, this is Ultimate. But Loki wasn't even a reality warper in 616 so how do we conclude from the little that we saw in Ultimates that "He can warp reality, on all levels. End of story."

Not saying he can't alter reality, but surely we don't know enough to conclude he can do anything he wants.

 

[Ice]

Well, the whole world is crazy. But that doesn't discount the fact that...

That's what I said, in other words.... :?

 

[DIrishB]

As far as i know Widow is a better shooter then hawkeye and has kicked more CQC *** then he would. Hawkeye just can't take her down sorry.

Gotta disagree, Hawkeye's whole schtick is he's an amazing sharp-shooter, with whatever weapon he has available, including guns. As for him being able to take down Black Widow, not sure, but he's definitly a better shot.

How do we know that? That wasn't even his powers in 616.

I'm assuming, but based on what we've seen of his powers so far it really isn't a reach.

Sure, this is Ultimate. But Loki wasn't even a reality warper in 616 so how do we conclude from the little that we saw in Ultimates that "He can warp reality, on all levels. End of story."

Not saying he can't alter reality, but surely we don't know enough to conclude he can do anything he wants.

You're right there, but as I said, from what we've seen so far, he seems able to. How else do you explain him being able to strip a fellow God of his powers?

 

[E.Vi.L.]

You're right there, but as I said, from what we've seen so far, he seems able to. How else do you explain him being able to strip a fellow God of his powers?

The powers really are tied to the belt? After all we never saw him do squat while not wearing his harness and using that hammer.

Occam's razor and all that.

 

[DIrishB]

The powers really are tied to the belt? After all we never saw him do squat while not wearing his harness and using that hammer.

Occam's razor and all that.

True, but Loki interacting with the Anti-Ultimates proves he does indeed exist, and that he either is a God or just believes he is. The first seems much more likely, and therefore it makes sense to assume Thor is also a God. Its also entirely believable, that being the case, that Loki manipulated reality to make Thor's powers dependant on the belt, instead of just his godhood.

 

[MoS]

And note that the Anti-Ultimates seem to take Loki's statement of god-hood at face value. Of course, "Crimson Dynamo" could be thinking "what a nutcake," but he doesn't SAY anything.

 

[DIrishB]

And note that the Anti-Ultimates seem to take Loki's statement of god-hood at face value. Of course, "Crimson Dynamo" could be thinking "what a nutcake," but he doesn't SAY anything.

Also true.

 

[MoS]

So, reading back in Ultimates V1, how ominous does THIS sound:

Natasha: A healthy espect for death is no bad thing, Mr. Stark. See Hawkeye over there? Did you know he telephones his girlfriend and says goodbye to his children before every single mission just in case it is his last?

Stark: A tad morbid, don't you think?

Natasha: (looking grim) No, because one day it will be his last, comrade.

Eeeep. Nice emphasis on the "comrade" there. Wouldn't it be good to think Millar had it all planned out, even back then?

 

[E]

So, reading back in Ultimates V1, how ominous does THIS sound:

Natasha: A healthy espect for death is no bad thing, Mr. Stark. See Hawkeye over there? Did you know he telephones his girlfriend and says goodbye to his children before every single mission just in case it is his last?

Stark: A tad morbid, don't you think?

Natasha: (looking grim) No, because one day it will be his last, comrade.

Eeeep. Nice emphasis on the "comrade" there. Wouldn't it be good to think Millar had it all planned out, even back then?

Wow - nice find!

 

[SeAcoW]

Gotta disagree, Hawkeye's whole schtick is he's an amazing sharp-shooter, with whatever weapon he has available, including guns. As for him being able to take down Black Widow, not sure, but he's definitly a better shot.

I want you to look at vol 2 again. Hawkeye says that he cant do this stuff and talk at the same time. Widow is standing with her back to the enemie shooting a guy in the head. Did you see the perfect Jarvis shot she did? Hawkeye is good but not that good.

So, reading back in Ultimates V1, how ominous does THIS sound:

Natasha: A healthy espect for death is no bad thing, Mr. Stark. See Hawkeye over there? Did you know he telephones his girlfriend and says goodbye to his children before every single mission just in case it is his last?

Stark: A tad morbid, don't you think?

Natasha: (looking grim) No, because one day it will be his last, comrade.

Eeeep. Nice emphasis on the "comrade" there. Wouldn't it be good to think Millar had it all planned out, even back then?

Yeah, I was looking at that. Been trying to find some things that could show that widow is the traitor. Look at the proposing scene with Tony and Natasha in the air. When Tony asks her she looks like: "Wow, this was easy, this plan is gonna be good" surprised. She then fake some tears. I love it

 

[E.Vi.L.]

I want you to look at vol 2 again. Hawkeye says that he cant do this stuff and talk at the same time. Widow is standing with her back to the enemie shooting a guy in the head. Did you see the perfect Jarvis shot she did? Hawkeye is good but not that good.

This says more about her ability to multitask than her accuracy. She's good in a John Woo movie kind of way, running around and shooting people as if it's a ballet with bullets.

Hawkeye is a better shot. That doesn't mean he would win a gun fight. He's not as superhuman in his agility for example. But he never misses and has pulled off the hardest shots seen in the UU so far, such as tagging Rogue who was running away with Toad's power in UW and hitting Hulk who was running at over 215 m/ph.

As for shooting Jarvis in the head... come on, man. I've pulled off shot this good at that distance with a paintball gun on several occasion. Nothing superhuman about that.

Last time I played I was surprised on my right by a dude who yelled "Freeze" about 12 feet away, a little behind me. I never surrender in paintball (The worst that can happen is a little pain) and before he could pull the trigger I pivoted and shot him in the head.

If even *I* can do this, every single superhero using a ranged attack in the UU can do this in his/her sleep. It is a meaningless feat that anyone with a good aim can do. Wake me up when she tag with a single shot Spider-Man or Quicksilver and then we'll discuss about the possibility of her being a better shot than Hawkeye.

 

[MoS]

Yeah, I was looking at that. Been trying to find some things that could show that widow is the traitor. Look at the proposing scene with Tony and Natasha in the air. When Tony asks her she looks like: "Wow, this was easy, this plan is gonna be good" surprised. She then fake some tears. I love it

I was reading V2 #5 again, where Widow takes down Thor (more or less) and rants about hippies and welfare checks and I'd almost say that is going in the OPPOSITE direction of pegging her as the traitor. Unless she is trying to make a statement about general moral decay, maybe, but that is kinda reaching...

 

[Living Large]

Regarding Thor being powerless without his hammer...

In 616, Blake was Thor's alter ego and whenever Thor was seperated from his hammer, he reverted back to Blake. The hammer was the vehicle for the transformation and enabled Blake to have access to the power of Thor. Please correct me if i'm totally off base here... it's been a long time.

I suspect that Millar is utilizing that part of the character...

 

[E]

This says more about her ability to multitask than her accuracy. She's good in a John Woo movie kind of way, running around and shooting people as if it's a ballet with bullets.

Hawkeye is a better shot. That doesn't mean he would win a gun fight. He's not as superhuman in his agility for example. But he never misses and has pulled off the hardest shots seen in the UU so far, such as tagging Rogue who was running away with Toad's power in UW and hitting Hulk who was running at over 215 m/ph.

I agree with this post.

Regarding Thor being powerless without his hammer...

In 616, Blake was Thor's alter ego and whenever Thor was seperated from his hammer, he reverted back to Blake. The hammer was the vehicle for the transformation and enabled Blake to have access to the power of Thor. Please correct me if i'm totally off base here... it's been a long time.

I suspect that Millar is utilizing that part of the character...

I think you're right. That certainly was how it was with Donal/Thor in 1602, and that was sort of based off Donald Blake/Thor.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

Except in this case it's not the removal of the hammer but of the belt that caused him to lose his powers.

Mjolnir is a famous enchanted weapon from mythology. Not so with the belt.

 

[DIrishB]

I want you to look at vol 2 again. Hawkeye says that he cant do this stuff and talk at the same time. Widow is standing with her back to the enemie shooting a guy in the head. Did you see the perfect Jarvis shot she did? Hawkeye is good but not that good.

Thats a terrible example. Hawkeye's making shots from MUCH farther away than Widow is in shooting Jarvis from only halfway across the room.

You're not going to find anyone who will say Black Widow is a better shot than Hawkeye, surgical impants or not. She's probably stronger, more agile, and faster than Clint (due to the implants), but she's not a better shot.

This says more about her ability to multitask than her accuracy. She's good in a John Woo movie kind of way, running around and shooting people as if it's a ballet with bullets.

Hawkeye is a better shot. That doesn't mean he would win a gun fight. He's not as superhuman in his agility for example. But he never misses and has pulled off the hardest shots seen in the UU so far, such as tagging Rogue who was running away with Toad's power in UW and hitting Hulk who was running at over 215 m/ph.

As for shooting Jarvis in the head... come on, man. I've pulled off shot this good at that distance with a paintball gun on several occasion. Nothing superhuman about that.

Last time I played I was surprised on my left by a dude who yelled "Freeze" about 12 feet away, a little behind me and to my right. I never surrender in paintball (The worst that can happen is a little pain) and before he could pull the trigger I pivoted and shot him in the head.

If even *I* can do this, every single superhero using a ranged attack in the UU can do this in his/her sleep. It is a meaningless feat that anyone with a good aim can do. Wake me up when she tag with a single shot Spider-Man or Quicksilver and then we'll discuss about the possibility of her being a better shot than Hawkeye.

Evil said it all right there.

 

[Living Large]

Ah yes ... it was the removal of the belt that took away his power. True.

Whether it's the hammer or the belt, either could be used in the same way. This is an ultimization after all. I suspect that Millar is using some derivitive of that character device from the original 616 universe.