So, who is it? (Ultimates 2 #5 spoilers)

Who is the traitor?


  • Total voters
    58

jtg3885

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Of course you're biased, you've been in at least two topics I've seen trying to push the Black Widow.

I still believe that Hank Pym is the guilty party. He has everything to gain, and nothing to lose by ratting out Banner. Banner is still working on the superhuman projects from within his cell, and probably would have until the end of his days, while Pym is getting thrown out. If Banner was exposed and executed, given that Pym and Banner are the geniuses behind the superhuman projects, that would force SHIELD to retain Pym to continue the projects. He probably set it all up, and then had a moment of pity for Banner and gave him whatever it was that allowed him to escape.

And it's a hell of a lot more plausible than adding another rogue Ultimate to the mix. Black Widow must have a reason she's working for Fury, rather than freelancing or working for Russia. Amnesty agreement, blackmail, whatever. I really doubt she'd be in a position to screw them all over and take off. If she could have, she probably would have by now, especially with her shiny black Mach 3 toy.
 

jtg3885

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TheManWithoutFear said:
Love the variety. Seriously JTG i'm glad you chose Pym.. I will "officially" tell why I chose Black Widow tomrrow.
Why bother? We've heard it all before. Multiple times.

TheManWithoutFear said:
Somewhere in some thread, someone said they wanted the Black Widow to betray the Ultimates. I originally didn't like the idea but I think it's a good idea now. It really make the Black Widow her own character.
It came up once, it was put down. It came up twice, it was put down again. Do we really need for me to pull apart your reasoning for a third time?
 

TheManWithoutFear

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jtg3885 said:
Why bother? We've heard it all before. Multiple times.


It came up once, it was put down. It came up twice, it was put down again. Do we really need for me to pull apart your reasoning for a third time?

Yeah, because half the people believed it wouldn't happen... and then this issue
"Loki" revealed it wasn't him (which I called) so it's gotta be someone and now the poll was made and the people have to vote.. :twisted:
 

jtg3885

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TheManWithoutFear said:
Yeah, because half the people believed it wouldn't happen... and then this issue
"Loki" revealed it wasn't him (which I called) so it's gotta be someone and now the poll was made and the people have to vote.. :twisted:
Like I said, because Loki is SUCH a credible, honest, and trustworthy individual. He's also apparently a shape-shifter. So that opens up the possibility that while he didn't directly do it, he assumed the guise of someone else to push the person into doing it. Maybe he was Fury and told someone to leak it, hmm? Think outside the box, man. And remember, there is no spoon...
 

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I think Pym would be too obvious a choice. Of course it makes sense, but I don't believe Millar would take that easy a road unless there is just a killer story involved.

There's also the possibility that whomever did it didn't know they were doing it, and were being influenced by Loki. Loki may not have done it directly, but...
 

MoS

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Okay, in the interests of peace and harmony:

Fury:
can't see any point in Fury being the mole. The Ultimates is about Fury being in power -- the trial of the Hulk seriously damaged the Ultimates in both power and clout.

Cap: again, can't see the point. Yes, it's awfully convenient they found Cap when and where they did, but he's pretty much the entire reason for the whole series.

Tony: far outside choice. Again, no motivation. He and Jan are probably the only two people that can just walk away from the Ultimates, and I don't see what Tony would stand to gain by bringing them down at this point, while he stills mostly believes in them.

Jan: I guess revenge for the treatment of Hank is a potential motive, but her relationship with Cap seems sincere if just as nearly dysfunctional as the last one.

Hawkeye:
career soldier, a wife/family that he thinks highly of, hence too much personal to lose. The only possible reason would be that he is a complete wacko and the Ultimates and Fury aren't far right enough for him, but that one is hard to believe. Plus, there is no real dramatic payoff for Millar there, no glorious confrontation.

Pietro/Wanda: no one trusts them in the first place and I'd bet that SHIELD keeps tabs on them. Which is a good reason for them to be the ones, actually... but it's just a little too obvious.

Hank: ditto on the "obvious" part.

Natasha: Natasha is in this for Natasha, for the thrill and for the money, not out of any loyalty or belief system. She does seem to care about Tony, gets ticked when Thor smacks him. Could Millar summon some deep-seated reason for Natasha to hate them all? Sure. Could also summon up a hefty bank balance, too.

Betty: don't forget about her. She's still there, if not in the spotlight.

Banner: Now there is a great plot twist, being responsible for his own presumed annihilation. Of course, maybe he knew he'd survive...
 
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Bass

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I actually haven't heard the Black Widow argument, so I'd like to hear it.

As for my opinion, I think Loki is telling the truth that he isn't the traitor (though, it's true he did lie in that scene, claiming that he bears no malice towards Thor) simply because the truth, in this case, will only infuriate Thor more. He tells him a truth, which sounds far-fetched, so when Thor attempts to tell others about it, they don't believe the truth and it allows Loki to get away with it.

Also, the 'traitor', according to Loki, works for some of Loki's friends. Basically, since we do not know who's allied with Loki, we can only therefore look at those character that currently have superiors.

Indeed, if we choose to say that Loki may be lying about the concept that the traitor works for Loki's allies, then he could be lying completely about the existence of a traitor, therefore, we must assume (forgive the pun) that Loki's word, in this case, is gospel.

For example, Iron Man could be the traitor (note, he isn't available as an option). It would indeed surprise Thor, and perhaps Iron Man's been putting on an act. However, Iron Man does not appear to have any superiors (except stock holders) who would be associates of Loki.

Also, Pym appears to be toally devoid of superiors, and thus, out of the equation.

Wasp, like Hawkeye, Captain America, and Black Widow all work directly for Nick Fury and SHIELD and therefore could all be candidates for the role of traitor.

However, out of these three, the most obvious character would be Black Widow, and since Loki said the identity of the traitor would surprise Thor, it would be unlikely it is her.

Captain America I could not imagine to be the traitor, simply because it does not fit his character. It would be a cheap turning point to out him as the traitor.

Wasp could possibly be the traitor if we allow ourselves to go a little crazy and assume that she is the reason Hank is no longer part of the Ultimates. She got him kicked off the team way back in #6 by purposely sparking his temper to beat her, so he would get kicked off the team, become disreputable and at the same time get closer ties to Captain America whom, no doubt, her superiors would need. Her superiors are SHIELD of course.

Hawkeye, could also be the traitor, if one assumes that the reason he doesn't carry/operate his mobile phone when Nick Fury calls him (as seen in Ultimates 2 #4) and why he was late to the meeting in #2, is because he works for other superiors in SHIELD.

Indeed, in both the Wasp and Hawkeye case (and indeed, the case of any Ultimate who works directly for SHIELD) the superiors would be SHIELD generals we've not met. This would mean Fury is unaware of the traitor in the Ultimates - for if Fury is telling the traitor what to do... that would be "traitors" would it not?

As for the two mutants, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, they're superiors could indeed be SHIELD, or even their father, Magneto. But in any case, these two seem to be too far out of the loop of the Ultimates to be the traitor. They don't even seem to possess much of a motive. They could want to destroy the Ultimates, and infiltration and sabotage has been their method. This is a possibility, but it seems to me to reek of "these are minor character no one's really paying attention to, so we can do whatever we want to them". It just seems a bit cheap to me.

As for the Union - the Union is not part of the Ultimates and therefore, they are not eligible under Loki's promise that the traitor was in Thor's team - the Ultimates.

However, the Union also had a leak of information, involving Captain Italy. While they've not been connected in the book, I think that the same person is responsible and they seem to just be accelerating the timetable. If the same person is responsible, that person must also now have access to the Union. While this is pure speculation on my part, if this is the case, Hank Pym would seem even more unlikely since he has nothing to do with The Union (to our knowledge) while, it is slightly more feasbile that Wasp, Captain America, Hawkeye or Black Widow could all gain access to the Union's files (indeed, since Black Widow is from Russia, she would be the most likely culprit in this situation).

As for Banner outing himself, this is indeed a possibility - but I think it has one small oversight: It's stupid. It's the most stupid theory I ever heard.

In all seriousness, Banner has nothing to gain from his outing. Simply because he's now in more danger than when he was in his cell (and while we could say that Banner assumed that Hank would save him, it seems unlikely) since Banner was just under house arrest, now he his one of the most hated men in America and a fugitive. I suppose we could say Banner's intention was to be let off the hook... but it doesn't work for me.

Also, according to Loki, the traitor is still in the team. Banner isn't.

As for Thor being the traitor... he could be an unwitting traitor. He may not know that he's the traitor... but no, I'm sorry. I think it's ridiculous.

That leaves Fury. Nick Fury could be the traitor. But again, it does not seem to fit his character. It could be Nick Fury, is unaware of that there is a traitor, and that higher ups in SHIELD simply tell him his orders and he does them while the traitor works on their own within the Ultimates. On the other hand, Fury could indeed be the traitor, but not realise it himself. Fury could believe that he is actually doing good, by using the Ultimates to save the world from all kinds of threats, only to discover that he's been used and manipulated by Loki's allies. This to me, is the most likely suspect. Fury as the traitor (his superiors are SHIELD) but he himself, is most likely, unaware of the damage he is doing. It would certainly make Thor's parting words to Fury in Ultimates #4 more personal and more prophetic. "Oh, I am here to save the world, General Fury. Save it from people like you."

If we go solely on the clues we've been given so far, Fury seems to be the prime suspect. But as more clues come this will no doubt change.

I think #6 will give a big clue.
 

Bass

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Rhyo was clever to mention Betty Ross, whom I had forgotten about.

Again, while she could be the traitor, I don't think so. Loki said that the traitor was a "Super-Soldier" and while that doesn't necessarily mean powers, it does mean a costume or being a specific member of the team.

In fact, it's soley because Fury isn't a super-soldier that I'm more inclined to believe that with further evidence, the traitor may turn out to be Wasp, Giant Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, or Captain America.
 

MoS

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Bass said:
That leaves Fury. Nick Fury could be the traitor. But again, it does not seem to fit his character. It could be Nick Fury, is unaware of that there is a traitor, and that higher ups in SHIELD simply tell him his orders and he does them while the traitor works on their own within the Ultimates. On the other hand, Fury could indeed be the traitor, but not realise it himself. Fury could believe that he is actually doing good, by using the Ultimates to save the world from all kinds of threats, only to discover that he's been used and manipulated by Loki's allies. This to me, is the most likely suspect. Fury as the traitor (his superiors are SHIELD) but he himself, is most likely, unaware of the damage he is doing. It would certainly make Thor's parting words to Fury in Ultimates #4 more personal and more prophetic. "Oh, I am here to save the world, General Fury. Save it from people like you."

If we go solely on the clues we've been given so far, Fury seems to be the prime suspect. But as more clues come this will no doubt change.

I think #6 will give a big clue.

My impression is that Nick Fury is SHIELD. He is the top dog, reporting only to the very highest officials in the country, but has no other immediate superiors.

It's possible that when Loki is talking about "my friends" he means the Defenders, who we see next issue, but, given the tone of MM's interviews about them (where he pretty much calls them "losers") I rather doubt that. If it was true, that would almost certainly make Hank the "traitor". My guess is that #6 is a stand-alone issue that might hint about the future but doesn't actively develop much before the next (and last?) arc.

I could be seriously wrong, of course, in any or all of the above.
 

Bass

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Nick Fury is the director of SHIELD, and he has very well-defined superiors we've seen in the Ultimate universe - the president and several other military advisors. Apart from the 'super-soldier' angle, he seems to fit very nicely into the role of the traitor.

As for #6 and the big clue - I've said this a few times, but not everyone reads everything I've said so I'll say it again: I'm am convinced that #6, which appears to be an innocuous stand-alone story will reveal a large clue about the leak and/or the catalyst for Grand Theft America.

The reasoning is that #6 is the final issue of the 6-part Gods and Monsters, and it seems disconnected from the rest of the arc, while The Trial of the Hulk and Thor's stories are most definately related.

While it's possible that we could discover that Hank is the traitor, I personally think what will happen is Giant Man will attempt to be with the Defenders, but it doesn't work out and that's when Ultron makes his full appearance, or the traitor offers him a job - or perhaps, even kills him.

For me, I think #6 is a big piece of the jigsaw, I just have no idea how it fits in.

I could, of course, be wrong, but I don't think so. Just as I'm damn sure Grand Theft America's climax will be The Ultimates versus SHIELD and The Union.

In fact, while I'm unsure as to other characters, I'm convinced that on the Ultimates' side will be Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America as they have always been the big three of Marvel.
 

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Great analysis as usual, Bass.
 

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