Superman Returns movie discussion *Spoilers*

[Dr.Strangefate]

Frankly I don't like your idea, Brainiac should be sinister, he should have destroyed numerous worlds before comming to Earth, he shouldn't be confused and is trying to destroy Earth by mistake. He should destroy Earth because he is sinister not confused and green skin would look stupid on the screen.

You know what I have liked this Luthor, if his scheme made sense and wasn't recyled from the first movie, that didn't make him seem very clever.

A "Sinister" Brainiac would be more stupid than Funny Happy Brainiac.

Brainiac has no emotions, period. He holds no grudges, his programming is to record a planet's culture and information, and then destroy it, so that his information is complete... Leaving a civilization be means that it will progress, and the information will not be up to date. That is why he would destroy a world.

Not because he's "Sinister"

And I'm not going to concede about the green skin, because if they wanted it to work, they definitely could. The artificial skin could just be an off color, giving it a eerie green look. He had the green artificial skin in the Animated Series, they just toned it down to make it look less vibrant.

This Look wouldn't work in live action, though. No matter what you say... It'd look like a halloween costume gone wrong

It'll probably end up being some variation on either of the two Pre-Crisis brainiac... The silver robot Skull version, or the Green skin version with the Brainiac diodes on his head.

I'm going to stop adressing your problems with Luthor, cuz I disagree that he was portrayed badly... I do think that the plot got a little conveluted, but in the end, It didn't take away from how much I liked the film. And it certainly didn't change the fact that I feel that Spacey did an excellent job as Luthor.

Also: Grammar is key.

 

[Lynx]

DISCLAIMER: Before I begin this review, let me say that I have never seen a Superman movie before today. Yes, I know, I was deprived. Anyway, I saw both Superman 1 and Superman Returns, so I'll give a mini review of 1, then compare it to Returns.

Superman 1 is a brilliant piece of cinemetography. Even though it's almost 30 years old, it holds up very well other than a few special effects. Defintly a 4 or a 4.5. Reeve IS Superman.

Now, Superman Returns.

First, the things I liked. The acting by almsot everyone was spot on (Excpet maybe Lois). Routh nailed Reeve's portayal of Superman and I liked Spacey's Luthor much more than Hackman's. The supporting cast were all really good too. The effects were brilliant and very smooth most of the time. I also really liked the plot dealing with Superman's return, whether or not he was needed, and his love triangle with Lois and Richard.

The things I didn't like were Luthor's plot and the twist with the kid. Luthor's plot felt too similiar to Superman 1's (More on this in a sec) and the kid. . .well, I felt it wasn't really nessecary to give Supes a kid. Yeah, it was neat having him do Jor-El's monologue, but I actually felt that that was the *only* reason the kid was in the movie.

Two things are going to bring down my review score. One is I don't have the nostalgia a good many of you have concerning the Superman movies, so it wasn't as important to me. Especially seeing that I enjoyed the original more and I saw both today. Second, Returns was odd in that it was a psuedo-remake of 1 combined with a sequel to 2. It really felt like it all had been done before. Even the plane was done in Superman 1, although slightly different.

Overall, I'd give it a 3.5 or a 3 for the sake of the poll. Good, solid movie, but nothing overtly spectacular.

 

[The Overlord]

A "Sinister" Brainiac would be more stupid than Funny Happy Brainiac.

Brainiac has no emotions, period. He holds no grudges, his programming is to record a planet's culture and information, and then destroy it, so that his information is complete... Leaving a civilization be means that it will progress, and the information will not be up to date. That is why he would destroy a world.

Not because he's "Sinister"

And I'm not going to concede about the green skin, because if they wanted it to work, they definitely could. The artificial skin could just be an off color, giving it a eerie green look. He had the green artificial skin in the Animated Series, they just toned it down to make it look less vibrant.

This Look wouldn't work in live action, though. No matter what you say... It'd look like a halloween costume gone wrong

It'll probably end up being some variation on either of the two Pre-Crisis brainiac... The silver robot Skull version, or the Green skin version with the Brainiac diodes on his head.

I'm going to stop adressing your problems with Luthor, cuz I disagree that he was portrayed badly... I do think that the plot got a little conveluted, but in the end, It didn't take away from how much I liked the film. And it certainly didn't change the fact that I feel that Spacey did an excellent job as Luthor.

Also: Grammar is key.

Pay attention, I said Brainiac should have a terrifying look, something akin to the late Pre crisis look (silver robot). Green skin would look stupid on the silver screen. The Timm look would not work on screen, I never said it would, your just creating a straw man agruement.

When I said Brainiac should be sinister, I meant that he should an unforgiving machine, that has no problem blowing up planets that contain life. He does so not because he was confused, as you seemed to suggest at first, he knows exactly what is doing and doesn't care about the innocent lives that he will snuff out. You said: "He holds no grudges, his programming is to record a planet's culture and information, and then destroy it, so that his information is complete." Why shouldn't Brainiac destroy Colu if that is the case, who cares about Brainiac 5, I don't, I doubt they will even make a Legion movie. Though frankly if he's not from Krypton, he comes off as just another super villain, he has no personal connection that made him interesting in STAS.

As for Lex, I still don't see how was he clever, he could have used Kryptonian tech in million different uses to make himself rich and powerful or even design high tech weapons to destroy Superman. Instead he used it in some stupid real estate scheme that would never work, some genius. I guess its a matter of taste, I like villains who are intelligent, sinister and have well thought out plans.

Also: You're acting like this: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/grammarian.htm

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I prefer to think of myself as this: http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/300W/i/2003/38/8/c/The_Grammar_Nazi.jpg

(and it's you're, or you are, not your)

Also: Brainiac shouldn't destroy Colu, because he was programmed by a Coluan, and therefore would be programmed not to collect Coluan culture and information. But I seriously wouldn't have a problem if Singer decided to have him end up having destroyed Colu... The only thing I'd have an issue with is if they pretended that Brainiac was the reason Krypton exploded... Because that doesn't fit in with this continuity, unless they did some very crafty thinking... which could work.

If he wasn't responsible for the destruction of Krypton, he still could have recorded its information before it exploded... Perhaps even collected a little specimen for further examination. Perhaps a small Kryptonian city named Kandor...

If they figured out how to work Kandor into the movie (hopefully ignoring mostly everything Superman: Godfall changed about the city), it could give Brainiac the edge against superman. That he would spare the lives of the bottled kryptonians if Superman stood aside as he destroyed the earth...

That could be interesting.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. I trust Singer's instincts, and now that he's revived the franchise, I bet you that he'll continue to move away from the themes he carried with him from the old movies. Newer villains, darker characters, more large-scale decisions...

I'm looking forward to an even better sequel to an already good movie. I trust that they'll get better... The potential for the franchise's greatness is possibly the biggest reason I loved Superman Returns. It is the link betweeen the past and the future.

You might not have cared for it, but i'm all excited.

Also: I guarentee there will be a Legion of Super-Heroes movie within the next decade, but that's irrelevant.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

I prefer to think of myself as this: http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/300W/i/2003/38/8/c/The_Grammar_Nazi.jpg

(and it's you're, or you are, not your)

Oooooooo.........



B-B-B-B-BUUUUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!


Cold busted Overlord...

 

[The Overlord]

I prefer to think of myself as this: http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/300W/i/2003/38/8/c/The_Grammar_Nazi.jpg

(and it's you're, or you are, not your)

Also: Brainiac shouldn't destroy Colu, because he was programmed by a Coluan, and therefore would be programmed not to collect Coluan culture and information. But I seriously wouldn't have a problem if Singer decided to have him end up having destroyed Colu... The only thing I'd have an issue with is if they pretended that Brainiac was the reason Krypton exploded... Because that doesn't fit in with this continuity, unless they did some very crafty thinking... which could work.

If he wasn't responsible for the destruction of Krypton, he still could have recorded its information before it exploded... Perhaps even collected a little specimen for further examination. Perhaps a small Kryptonian city named Kandor...

If they figured out how to work Kandor into the movie (hopefully ignoring mostly everything Superman: Godfall changed about the city), it could give Brainiac the edge against superman. That he would spare the lives of the bottled kryptonians if Superman stood aside as he destroyed the earth...

That could be interesting.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. I trust Singer's instincts, and now that he's revived the franchise, I bet you that he'll continue to move away from the themes he carried with him from the old movies. Newer villains, darker characters, more large-scale decisions...

I'm looking forward to an even better sequel to an already good movie. I trust that they'll get better... The potential for the franchise's greatness is possibly the biggest reason I loved Superman Returns. It is the link betweeen the past and the future.

You might not have cared for it, but i'm all excited.

Also: I guarentee there will be a Legion of Super-Heroes movie within the next decade, but that's irrelevant.

Whatever, being a grammar nazi is still unbecoming behaviour, it makes you seem rude and unpleasant. Unless your my professor and this a term paper, I don't care about your opinions on my grammar.

The Kandor thing is stupid, Superman is supposed one of the last survivor of Krypton, the only other Kryptonians around are the phamton zone criminals and they are evil, therefore Superman is still alone in the universe. Kandor would take away Superman's uniqueiness, what's the point of Krypton exploding if a whole city survived? Besides if Brainiac destorys Colu, it shows how ruthless he is, willing to blow up his own home planet for his mission, he shouldn't be some gimp who is confused and tries to destroy Earth by mistake, like you seem to be suggesting. Brainiac shouldn't be some wimp who needs to threaten Kandor to take on Supes, he should be able to take Supes with his super intelligence and technology, he should be a bad @ss, not a coward. Are you trying to make Brainiac into a wimp, so Superman will have no menacing villains? Frankly I don't care about the Legion, so I say let him destory Colu.

Singer did not make an orginal movie, this movie was nothing more than a retread of the 1978 film, it had nothing new to say. I was expected a new direction, new darker villains in this film, not the sequel that I would have to wait 3 years to see. Considering this movie was nothing but a glorified remake, I wonder if he will recyle Zod in the next film. That way he won't have come up with anything new, he can do a retread of Superman II in the sequel, won't that be fun. :roll:

 

[The Overlord]

Oooooooo.........



B-B-B-B-BUUUUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!


Cold busted Overlord...

Unless you guys are marking my term papers, I don't care about your opinions on my grammar. So there.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

My point is that ruthlessness, "wimpiness", and cowardice don't apply to robots in the way you're suggesting.

Superman isn't the last Kryptonian. Any point in continuity where they tried to make that claim has been retconned out of continuity. Kandor is continuity. So is Supergirl.

This is stupid.

Back on topic.

 

[Random]

Unless you guys are marking my term papers, I don't care about your opinions on my grammar. So there.

You cannot deflec the BURN, for the BURN is invincible, the only way to stop it is with another BURN

My point is that ruthlessness, "wimpiness", and cowardice don't apply to robots in the way you're suggesting.

Superman isn't the last Kryptonian. Any point in continuity where they tried to make that claim has been retconned out of continuity. Kandor is continuity. So is Supergirl.

This is stupid.

Back on topic.

He is refered to as the Last Son, and considering that I dont know who Kandor is and unless Zod gets freaky with his leutenant that's true

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

The Bottle City of Kandor

 

[Random]

The Bottle City of Kandor

Sounds like they retconned it to non-kryptonian people...why do I like comics again?

 

[The Overlord]

My point is that ruthlessness, "wimpiness", and cowardice don't apply to robots in the way you're suggesting.

Superman isn't the last Kryptonian. Any point in continuity where they tried to make that claim has been retconned out of continuity. Kandor is continuity. So is Supergirl.

This is stupid.

Back on topic.

The fact is I wouldn't respect Brainiac if he had to rely on threatening Kandor to be a threat to Superman, that would be weak. In the cartoon he was tough enough to fight Superman with his own abilities, he didn't need to threaten the city of Kandor to pose a threat to Superman.

Supergirl I don't mind she just one other good Krypotian in the universe. Kandor would not work on screen, so it doesn't matter if it is in the comics, the legion of super pets was in the comics, that doesn't mean it would work on screen. What will Superman do, talk to the city in the third movie or something, its just a big distraction, taking time away from more important things.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Oh those wacky Krypotians and their Krypotian antics...

Back to the subject at hand:

Thinking back a little more critically on the supporting cast... Was anyone else surprised how well Jimmy Olsen came across onscreen? I mean, it was obviously a very conscious choice not to go for the geeky shaggy haired teenager you might see in the comics or the animated series. I mean, they gave him back his little obsession with Clark, and even got him his bow-tie back... I was very pleasantly surprised, and I certainly hope they do more with him in the sequels.

Perry White didn't sway me one way or another, I'm hoping a little more exposure might show him to be a bit stronger of a character.

Richard White was my biggest issue with the movie. They made up a character, and it seems like they just dragged Marsden over from X-Men 3 and told him to be Cyclops. The character is just a washed out cyclops who has to compete with Superman, and clearly Superman wins.

-I- would rather date Superman than a newspaper editor... Hell, even the kid called his dad boring.

Lois surprised me. I like her a HELL of a lot more than I liked the original, although I think I might like a touch more spunk... She's got the whole headstrong bit when it comes to getting in trouble, but she seems helpless, and I don't like that. The fax thing was clever, and I liked that, but as a Pulitzer Prize winning Journalist, the clever mind should come through MOST not Some of the time.

Let me clarify that i loved the movie, but that doesnt make it perfect.

 

[ProjectX2]

I liked it.

I thought I read that the boy died. I was waiting for that.

Also, I thought we got to see Superman's visit to "Krypton". I didn't see that either.

Otherwise, it was a great movie. I'll definitely be getting the DVD.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

With the Krypton stuff, I bet they didnt delve into that on purpose... Should they want to introduce Darkseid as a villain, they would be able to flash back to a run in during his five missing years.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Also, I thought we got to see Superman's visit to "Krypton". I didn't see that either.

I bet some of the scenes involving that got cut due to time constraints.

I'll definitely be getting the DVD.

I'm actually hesitant to get the DVD when it comes out because I know Singer will release a "super" (no pun intended......or was it :?) version a bit later. No doubtedly with all the scenes that were deleted reincorporated. I'd hate to buy the DVD.....then get a bigger better version like 2 months later.

But that's probably what'll happen anyways.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I bet some of the scenes involving that got cut due to time constraints.

They did. It's gonna make a great extended cut though.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

They did. It's gonna make a great extended cut though.

Q: Can you talk about the scenes you deleted? I know you shot like a big Krypton scene.
Singer: I did. I shot a lot with the space sequence. Return to Kyrpton. There was a 2 hours and 45 minute cut of the film that I showed to friends and family. While watching it with a group of people, watching the movie unfold I just felt it was really interesting on its own and deserved a life somewhere else. Maybe on DVD. I think it should be on 3D IMAX frankly because it's designed to be 3D IMAX. At some point I'm sure you'll see it some time and it's got a little thing that's going on. It's very elegant. In the context of this movie where this movie needed to begin and what it needed to be about, I didn't feel it. It's just one of those things that you bravely do. No one told me to do it, to make these cuts. I had no time restrictions. Nor pressure whatsoever. I just felt the movie doesn't need this so I did something else instead. It could exist later in this form. I think it would be coolest in 3D because of the stuff that's flying around.

Q: How long could the movie have been?
Singer: It was 2 hours and 45 minutes. That was this cut that I screened for friends and family. That's why I stepped back and said I, OK the time has come for me to sit back and bring a bunch of people in a room and just watch it with them. You learn a lot from that moment. They don't even need to say anything to you. I had a few friends I'd ask. But you know it. You feel it in the room. I've lost the audience here. Lost them and then at one moment I got them back. You just learn and that was the 2 hour and 45 minute version.

Q: What's going on the DVD?
Singer: I think there will be some deleted scenes. Some charming scenes. Wonderful things that existed beautifully on their own. Moments that were wonderful. I had a tough thing. James Karen was in the picture and you know he plays this gentlemen Ben Hubbard that Martha Kent has been involved with and it's wonderful. They're wonderful beats and hopefully those will be there because I'd hate for people not to see them. It's the magic of DVD.

Q: Are you going to do an extended cut?
Singer: No, I don't think I'll do an extended cut. Not at least in the DVD. I've never done that. Those are kind of weird you know. The director's cut. No this is the director's cut. You just saw it. They don't tell me what to cut. I'm not in a place in my career that anyone tells me that I have to cut anything or put anything in.

They'll be on the DVD, but not put into the movie, it sounds like...

I respect that.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

They'll be on the DVD, but not put into the movie, it sounds like...

I respect that.

That's cool....but almost kinda weird that he only cut like 10 minutes from the film. I would've just kept them in there. I can see cutting like 20-30 minutes....but just 10?

 

[E.Vi.L.]

I'd say 2/5. With so many 5 stars, I figured I might as well. What are you guys gonna rate a really great movie if this is a 5 star for you?

What I like : The details around the story. Many of the secondary characters were great. Lex Luthor was very entertaining. The piano scene for example, from the bad guy playing with the kid to him getting killed by the piano, was very good cinema. There was plenty of such small moments that made the movie reasonably entertaining for me.

What was Okay : Routh as Superman wasn't too bad. But he lacked charisma. That was hard, anyway. Superman hardly talks and when he does he has nothing interesting to say. You'd need an actor of great intensity and screen presence to compensate. Routh doesn't manage it but at least he does an honest job.

Kate Bosworth also did an okay job. Well, she looks way too young to be Lois Lane +5 years. And her interaction with Superman made me think Superman didn't show up for one date instead of disappearing for 5 years without even saying goodbye. But she was okay.

The kid was good.

What was Bad : Other have said it, I'll say it too ; we saw that Superman story before. At times it felt as much like a remake as it felt like a continuation.

Very little tension. Most of the action scenes were as exciting as watching me step on an ant. Weee. Superman is omnipotent as long as we don't Deus Ex Machina Kryptonite into the scene. I get it. Move on to a scene with Lex or Jimmy Olsen please. In Superman II he is fighting 3 other Kryptonian and there can be doubt that Superman can win this fight. That's what is needed to make an action sequence relevant : a physical challenge that is, well, a challenge. Superman never has that in this movie. He is omnipotent, then weak as a kitten, then omnipotent again. I don't see how someone could have been on the edge of his seat at any point in this movie.

Too heavy handed with the Jesus metaphor. We get it, really. We're not stupid. The imagery can be used a little more sparingly and the ensemble would look a little less pretentious.

---

Various gripes :

Does Lois Lane have superpowers? She seemed tougher to kill than Wolverine. She gets tossed around like a rag doll in the plane and walks away unhurt. She get her head slammed into a bronze statue by a big goons and doesn't even black out. In the boat scene where she is trying to escape she gets a heavy door brutally slammed directly on her head and she doesn't... well... die.

Oh, and she dives to pick up Superman, a 220 pound man, who was by then at over 10 meter of depth, and drag him to the surface. A feat that would have been hard enough for her fit looking fiancee. But for a 110 pound woman... Who smokes... You know, I think the grrl power movement should back off a little from action movies. Just a little.

You remember the way Superman deposed the plane in the stadium? That would have killed or seriously injured the people sitted near the tail of the plane. Seriously.

Speaking of the plane... Superman can fly near the speed of light, right? It's mentionned by a reporter explaining how he can be almost anywhere on the planet at will. And he can lift an island into space. So... When it looked like he could barely go faster than the falling plane, and when it looked like he was straining to tear the wing and then to stop the fall of the plane... That was for the viewer's sake, right? He could have instantly moved in front of the plane and didn't need to grimace while pushing against the nose of the plane. That was a mere fraction of his speed and strenght. He just did it to give us a show. Good boy.

Superman lost his powers moments after landing on the island. And there wasn't a lot kryptinite to be seen. But when it comes to lifting the island, that's okay. He kept his powers long enough to launch the island into space. Even with kryponite almost poking through his eye. Basically, even Kryptonite can't stop him if it allows him to pull a spectacular stunt and save the day. Good boy.

Very minor gripe : The way superman sees through wall makes no sense. It implies he controls light. We see a thing because light is reflected by it. The way superman sees through wall would require for light to pass through certain objects but not through what he wishes to see. In essence, he'd need to control light itself to achieve this result. But hey, that's not new to this movie. Just a thing that annoys me with Superman. His frost breath is just as problematic. Or his flight. Nothing is connected and the way to explain one power always open other questions.

I think I would like Superman a lot more if he just kept his original powers when he first appeared. Anyway, much, much too late for that.