Terminator Salvation

[Iceshadow]

After Langsta's post I'm really looking forward to this now.

 

[Ice]

I don't know how Reese can exist in this movie if he died in the first one.

That's when time-travel explanation comes and gives people headaches. Doesn't he have to exist somehow for John to send him back in time later on?



I hate time travel explanations... :dazed:

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

I I don't know how Reese can exist in this movie if he died in the first one.

Simple.

Reese is sent back by John Connor, where he gets Sarah pregnant with John, and then dies. This film is set in the future, but not too far in the future that it is after Reese is sent back. I did hear a rumour once that this film (and any potential sequels) will lead up to Reese being sent back and bringing the movies full circle. So basically...

There ya go.

 

[Ice]

So TSCC doesn't take place before T3 in one timeline together? I assumed it happened between 2 and 3 since in the show (when I saw the pilot) it was 2007 (or '08...) still a few years before T3 (which was said was in year 2011, right?)

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Nope, T3 occurs in 2004, so The Sarah Connor Chronicles skips out T3 completely, due to the time jump that takes place in the pilot.

 

[Ice]

Nope, T3 occurs in 2004, so The Sarah Connor Chronicles skips out T3 completely, due to the time jump that takes place in the pilot.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[Langsta]

Simple.

Reese is sent back by John Connor, where he gets Sarah pregnant with John, and then dies. This film is set in the future, but not too far in the future that it is after Reese is sent back. I did hear a rumour once that this film (and any potential sequels) will lead up to Reese being sent back and bringing the movies full circle.

That doesn't make sense. The future from which Reese is sent back must be an alternate future than the one that follows the first Terminator movie. It can't just be one big circle. There's more than one future. The John from Reese's future must have been born under different circumstances.

 

[thee great one]

That doesn't make sense. The future from which Reese is sent back must be an alternate future than the one that follows the first Terminator movie. It can't just be one big circle. There's more than one future. The John from Reese's future must have been born under different circumstances.

It makes perfect sense. We are suppose to understand from the first movie that Reese is John's father.

I thought T3 was the official one and the Sarah Conner show was an alternate.

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

That doesn't make sense. The future from which Reese is sent back must be an alternate future than the one that follows the first Terminator movie. It can't just be one big circle. There's more than one future. The John from Reese's future must have been born under different circumstances.

Nope.

Reese goes back in time, fathers John and dies. This creates two possible timelines. The one where Reese goes back, and one where he didn't. The films follow the universe in which Reese did go back and John was born.


and TGO, I'm not really sure which out of T3 and SCC is official canon, but I prefer SCC so I used that.

 

[Langsta]

It makes perfect sense. We are suppose to understand from the first movie that Reese is John's father.

I thought T3 was the official one and the Sarah Conner show was an alternate.

Nope.

Reese goes back in time, fathers John and dies. This creates two possible timelines. The one where Reese goes back, and one where he didn't. The films follow the universe in which Reese did go back and John was born.


and TGO, I'm not really sure which out of T3 and SCC is official canon, but I prefer SCC so I used that.

There HAS to be a starting point somewhere.


There has to be a starting point somewhere. And also, maybe the only reason the John Connor played by Eddie Furlong/Nick Stahl/Christian Bale is named 'John' is because of Reese's influence - this Sarah had more reason to call her son John than the Sarah who mothered the John that Reese knew, so she probably felt compelled to name him what she did. The way I see it, the Furlong/Stahl/Bale version of John is a completely different John than the one Reese knew. Furlong/Stahl/Bale John is....for lack of a better term, an "imitation" of that John. Part of him only wanted to live up to his destiny because of his mom....He was initially reluctant to accept his destiny. Also, he knew about his future self....I can't really say for certain that the other John Connor didn't know about his destiny, because not much has been said about that John's past. But my theory is that the Furlong/Stahl/Bale John ("our" John) is the leader of the human resistance (like the other John), but is actually trying to live up to the other John somewhat. But it doesn't make our John any less of a character if that's the case; in fact, it makes him more interesting. And you can't deny that accepting fate is a major theme of the series (as is "changing" it, if that makes any sense). I'm thinking....so if our John is a "different person" than the one from Reese's future....I'm saying, if Reese and the original Terminator had never been sent back, and our John had been born under different circumstances than that (that being Reese and Sarah's one-night stand)....then maybe he would have eventually became the leader of the resistance anyway, except not being trained by his mom and stuff. I dunno, those are just theories.

Now, I'm going to look back on the series and try to see if I can make any sense of my rambling....I made a timeline that covers the events of TERMINATOR, TERMINATOR 2, CHRONICLES (assuming that TSCC is canon and TERMINATOR 3 isn't), and SALVATION. We'll have to assume that if TERMINATOR 3 isn't canon, then John eventually hooks up with Kate Brewster anyways, because she's his pregnant wife by the time SALVATION comes around. Ahem, the whole timeline should read fairly chronologically for the most part; I've organized it into 3 different timelines, since there are 3 stories on the timeline that feature time travel, that we know of - TERMINATOR, T2, and TSCC. SALVATION is the fourth story, and says that Marcus Wright, the decommissioned Terminator, is from either the past or the future - when I learn what timeline he comes from, I'll update it accordingly. Even though it switches between past and present, it still is basically chronological since future timelines are effected by past ones in this series - So, for example, if you start out in the "first" timeline using Skynet's POV, they send a guy back to the "second" timeline, the guy fails there, so in the "first" timeline, Skynet realizes that there is no change/that John Connor still exists, so they send another guy back....That's just for the first few timelines. So each future timeline - in the case of the first movie, the future timeline is named "first timeline" - basically ends with someone being sent back in time, and the present timeline - in the case of the first movie, it's named "second" timeline - starts with someone arriving from the last timeline. My dates/information about the Sarah Connor Chronicles might be wrong; I don't really watch that show.

FIRST TIMELINE

1959 or 1965
-Sarah Connor born

1984
-John Connor born; biological father unrevealed
-John raised by mother; unknown if father helped raise him

1997
-Skynet goes online and begins learning at a geometric rate
-Judgment Day occurs (Skynet becomes self-aware and initiates nuclear war)

2008
-Kyle Reese born

2029
-Skynet sends T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Connor
-John Connor sends Kyle Reese back in time to protect his mother

SECOND TIMELINE

1984
-T-800 arrives in Los Angeles from first timeline
-Kyle Reese arrives in Los Angeles from first timeline
-Kyle impregnates Sarah
-T-800 kills Kyle before being destroyed by Sarah; its parts are left behind at the Cyberdyne facilities

1985+
-John Connor born to Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese
-Cyberdyne begins researching and developing technology from the T-800's remains
-Sarah placed in mental institution after blowing up computer factory and warning about Judgment Day
-John taken in the care of Todd and Janelle Voight
-Miles Dyson develops neural-net processor using the T-800's CPU

FIRST TIMELINE

2029
-Skynet sends T-1000 back in time to kill John Connor
-John reprograms a T-800 and sends it back in time to protect his younger self

SECOND TIMELINE

1995
-T-800 arrives from first timeline
-T-1000 arrives from first timeline shortly thereafter
-T-800 releases Sarah Connor from the mental institution
-Miles Dyson sacrificies himself to prevent rise of machines, blowing up data on Skynet prototype
-T-800 succeeds in protecting John; kills the T-1000
-Sarah and John destroy remaining Terminator parts, including T-800, to prevent any further research or development
-Sarah and John blamed for Dyson's murder; hide from government
-Derek Reese born

(?) Skynet precursor ("The Turk") developed by former Cyberdyne intern Andrew Goode

2002
-Kyle Reese born

2005
-Sarah Connor dies of cancer

2011
-Skynet goes online
-Judgment Day occurs (Skynet becomes self-aware and initiates nuclear war)

2027
-Skynet sends T-888 back in time to kill John Connor
-John sends unspecified Terminator model back in time to protect his younger self
-John sends four-man resistance team (including Derek Reese) back in time to prevent creation of Skynet

(?) "The Engineer" travels back in time to construct time displacement device and hide it within bank vault

THIRD TIMELINE

1963
-Engineer arrives from second (?) timeline to construct time displacement device and hide it within bank vault

1999
-T-888 arrives from second timeline in order to kill John Connor; masquerades as substitute teacher named Mr. Cromartie
-Resistance Terminator arrives to protect John; poses as high school student ("Cameron Phillips")
-John and Sarah Connor move from Nebraska to New Mexico
-T-888 masquerades as substitute teacher "Mr. Cromartie"
-Cameron and Connors use Engineer's device to evade Cromartie and authorities; Cromartie manages to follow them through time

2007+
-Cameron and Connors arrive via time displacement device (same timeline, as history remains unchanged)
-Cromartie arrives; tracks Connors
-Sarah Connor destroys Turk; Andrew Goode builds second Turk
-Resistance team arrives from second timeline in order to prevent creation of Skynet; Derek Reese kills Goode
-Turk II computer stolen; sold to Zeira Corporation
-Cromartie is destroyed; Cameron is destroyed
-Sarah Connor dies
-John marries Kate Brewster
-Skynet goes online
-Judgment Day occurs (Skynet becomes self-aware and initiates nuclear war)

2018
-Skynet prepares final onslaught
-Marcus Wright, a decommissioned Terminator with amnesia, arrives from another time period
-Marcus befriends John Connor and Kyle Reese

 

[Jaggyd]

snip

This is why I hate time travel as a story plot. Everything you've laid out is perfectly logical, but I'm afraid that at some point the show or films will try to claim that Reese's fathering of John as a predestination paradox (which it clearly can't be).

 

[Fredrik Martinsson]

Everything is so much simpler if you don't consider the SCC canon.

 

[ourchair]

So TSCC doesn't take place before T3 in one timeline together? I assumed it happened between 2 and 3 since in the show (when I saw the pilot) it was 2007 (or '08...) still a few years before T3 (which was said was in year 2011, right?)

TSCC is an alternate timeline, and McG has acknowledged that whatever he does with T4 he's not going to try to contradict or reproduce anything that happens in the TV show with the implication that TSCC may, can and could exist in the same timeline as T4, but it's not specified as such.

As HBM points out, TSCC, by jumping between the late 90s to 2006, effectively skips T3. I think what's going unspoken is that T3 is not being paid any attention to. It may contradict things between T2, TSCC and T4 but it's not being written out. Call it "soft retcon," if you will.

Anyway, I hate it when people try to make Continuity Physics into laws instead of theories, so I think it's best not to think too hard about how one thing fits into the scheme of other things.

Also, regarding the "Reese is the father of someone who sent him back in time" business. Time travel is not supposed to make sense as a science, it's supposed to make sense as a narrative and dramatic device.

 

[SSJmole]

Cameron is destroyed

No, I refuse to believe this.

 

[Ice]

TSCC is an alternate timeline, and McG has acknowledged that whatever he does with T4 he's not going to try to contradict or reproduce anything that happens in the TV show with the implication that TSCC may, can and could exist in the same timeline as T4, but it's not specified as such.

As HBM points out, TSCC, by jumping between the late 90s to 2006, effectively skips T3. I think what's going unspoken is that T3 is not being paid any attention to. It may contradict things between T2, TSCC and T4 but it's not being written out. Call it "soft retcon," if you will.

Anyway, I hate it when people try to make Continuity Physics into laws instead of theories, so I think it's best not to think too hard about how one thing fits into the scheme of other things.

Also, regarding the "Reese is the father of someone who sent him back in time" business. Time travel is not supposed to make sense as a science, it's supposed to make sense as a narrative and dramatic device.

Ahh, Ok. Many thanks.

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

My view of the Terminator timeline is slightly different to yours Langsta. I'm not going to use dates, but just describe the events as they happen in my head.


1. Sarah Connor is born

2. Sarah Connor and Unknown Male father John Connor (as you said. This has to happen for there to be a John Connor in the future of this timeline)

3. Skynet goes online after being developed by an unknown group

4. John Connor grows to become the leader of the Resistance.

5. Skynet sends a Terminator back in time before point 2, to kill Sarah Connor but FAILS to kill her before John Connor is born, even though it does eventually kill her. <NOTE: This has to be the case, otherwise the moment the T800 went back, John would not exist to send Reese back in time>

6. John Connor sends back Kyle Reese back before point 2, not to save John, as he has been born, but to save SARAH.

Now Kyles presence in the past changes the future more than the terminator going back in time did in the first case. First, he interferes with the birth of Sarah Conner's child, replacing the original father with himself. Second, he gives information to Sarah which she uses to protect herself and to prepare John to be a more formidable opponent. Third, he jump-starts the Skynet program, which I will explain later.

Kyle's trip back in time starts the second timeline when he, instead of another man, fathers John Connor.

Reese's trip back in time should create a time loop in that Sarah survives, so John has no reason to send Reese back. But this can be resolved as Sarah tells John that Reese is his father in this new timeline. Thus John has a new reason to send Reese back in time, to ensure that he is now born.

As I said before, Reese's trip back kickstarted the Skynet program. This is because Cyberdyne create Skynet by studying parts of the original T800. The original Skynet therefore, must have been created by another group who were close on a breakthrough, when Cyberdyne, in the altered timeline, used terminator parts to create their version of Skynet.


Now, the story following the events of T2 must take a similar route to the previous events. The T1000 returns to kill John. John MUST therefore evade capture, which leads the T1000 to go after Sarah, who somehow defeats the T1000 (Military or Police aid?) but dies in the process. Future John, therefore, sends our old friend, the reprogrammed T800 to save Sarah. Together, they eventually destroy Cyberdyne, leading Sarah to think that Judgement Day has been stopped.

HOWEVER, in taking out Cyberdyne, the original unknown creators of Skynet can now continue their work and create Skynet. This is revealed to be the military in T3.

At some point between T2 and T3, Sarah has died of cancer and John has gone 'off the grid' to avoid being tracked. Skynet can no longer find John and so attempts to take out his lieutenants by sending back T-Roboboobies. We know Kate Brewster sent back the T800 in this instance as John had been killed. Again, something must have occured to stop the TX from killing Kate, but there must still have been a need to send the T800 back again, possibly to ensure John is at a safe location when the bombs start to fall, as in the original timeline John, due to the interference with the timeline and his 'off the grid' lifestyle is caught outside when Judgement Day happens. Eventually, John and Kate end up in the bunker, and survive Judgement Day.

Next, a T888 is sent back to kill John. Again. Again we assume that, as time didn't alter straight away, John survived, but chose to send back Cameron to help out. Possibly the T888 killed Sarah to drawn John out, and Cameron's interference stopped that.
Sarah, John and Cameron jump forward in time avoiding the events of T3 in an attempt to hunt down the original creators of Skynet and stop the postponed Judgement Day.

The only problem I cannot resolve is the problem of the military not developing Skynet in 2004 as in T3. If this still occured, when John, Sarah and Cameron jumped into the future, they should have arrived smack bang in the middle of the war.. The only time I can suggest is that, as The Resistance is known to send back resistance units as seen in TSCC, they sent back a team to interfere with the military.

And breathe.

 

[ourchair]

I hate how EVERY thread about Terminator devolves to discussing nothing but time travel and predestination paradoxes, et al.

How about, "Who thought Brian Austin Green could be cool?"

 

[Langsta]

I hate how EVERY thread about Terminator devolves to discussing nothing but time travel and predestination paradoxes, et al.

How about, "Who thought Brian Austin Green could be cool?"

Time travel and predestination paradoxes have been a focus of the Terminator franchise since 1984. Discussing how the timeline works helps to gain a better understanding of the Terminator mythos....so if anything, the Terminator thread is....evolving.

 

[Random]

Terminator 3 ****ed the timeline up so much I don't even try to explain it. That's why I don't consider that movie "cannon"

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Terminator 3 ****ed the timeline up so much I don't even try to explain it. That's why I don't consider that movie "cannon"

God bless the Sarah Connor Chronicles for doing that for us...