The Dark Knight {Spoilers Abound}

[DIrishB]

You're just guessing as we all are. So it really can't be "obvious" if it wasn't shown to us. :wink:

Um, but it was shown to us. We saw him fall and die. We saw Batman turn his head (being that close, I'm sure he could tell if there was a pulse or breath still being drawn). We saw a friggin' memorial for the guy. He's dead, people. Should they've shown his dead body on the morgue table, opened up while the coroner is examining the body to convince you he won't be back?

Don't make me use my mod powers!

Don't make me use my powers over time. I could go back in time and prevent you from ever stumbling upon Ultimate Central. Then where would you be? Mwahahahahaha!!!

I know he says that he does it to protect his family, but do they ever specify what he is protecting them from? It would be a help if you could explain how Gordon pretending to be dead helps his family.

So he was lying? Gordon was just scared of the Joker and hiding from him or something in your opinion? Why do you think he faked his death, then?

Rachel's death and Harvey's disfigurement are perfect examples of why Gordon was completely justified and showing a considerable amount of foresight in faking his death. With Gordon dead, the Joker has no reason to go after Gordon's family. With Gordon alive, the Joker has EVERY reason to go after Gordon's family to use as leverage.

How is this not obvious?

Well ok then. All I am saying is that I think it is possible that he isn't dead.

Of course its possible he isn't dead. I'm just listing reasons why he IS dead. But make no mistake, he is. Dead. As a doornail. Or as Heath Ledger. :shock:

I want one person to provide me with a good way that Dent could come back that wouldn't be contrived. Dent's ambition was to get revenge on the people who he believed wronged him. The only unfinished business he would have is to finish going after Gordon, and that doesn't necessarily equal to a massive villainous plot.

The only way I could think of him coming back is as a plot device to save Batman's reputation or in some lame plot to "make Gotham pay". But that would be dumb.

The best thing I can compare it to is the Saw movies. I don't like any of the Saw movies, but in the first one Jigsaw's plot at least is understandable, from a twisted perspective. But with each movie, his motivations became more and more convoluted and his death traps became more and more pointless.

If Two-Face comes back, whatever he does will feel convoluted and pointless and the third movie will be just another typical superhero movie with a typical villain.

Harvey's story was done very well and fit Nolan's world perfectly.

Him coming back as a typical villain would not.

Why would he become a criminal? He had a reason to harm people in The Dark Knight but what reason would he have to just commit crimes?

Thank you.

No, I don't think that's so. Spider-Man 3 and X-Men 3 were both better than Batman Begins. Made more money too.

And Iron Man is definitely no more than a normal super-hero movie.

Eeeeeeeeeeewww.

Joe is obviously infested with brain worms of some kind.

Maybe its end stage syphilis.

 

[ProjectX2]

DIB is exactly right. It is scary I am agreeing with him so much recently.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I want one person to provide me with a good way that Dent could come back that wouldn't be contrived. Dent's ambition was to get revenge on the people who he believed wronged him. The only unfinished business he would have is to finish going after Gordon, and that doesn't necessarily equal to a massive villainous plot.

Maybe he decides that the Joker is the one that should pay, maybe he goes after Maroni. Who knows? Just because someone personally can't think of a good way to bring him back, doesn't mean it can't be done, or done well. I don't know why I'm arguing this anyway. I don't think he should come back per se, I'm just saying he might not be dead. sheesh. :roll:

Why would he become a criminal? He had a reason to harm people in The Dark Knight but what reason would he have to just commit crimes?

What reason does he have to become a villain in the comics?

Um, but it was shown to us. We saw him fall and die. We saw Batman turn his head (being that close, I'm sure he could tell if there was a pulse or breath still being drawn). We saw a friggin' memorial for the guy. He's dead, people. Should they've shown his dead body on the morgue table, opened up while the coroner is examining the body to convince you he won't be back?

None of that is proof that he is dead. The conversation between Gordon and Batman didn't even make it seem like they thought he was dead. It could be taken either way. Batman could just as easily wanted to take on the crimes that "Two-Face" commited to save the reputation of "Dent" whether he was dead or still alive. Whether or not he was dead wouldn't have changed the fact the Batman would have to keep Dent from looking a murderer in the public eye. Dent easily could have been unconscious. And yes, there was a memorial for Dent, not necessarily a funeral, just a memorial. It could have been just becuase I got horribly scarred for all we know.

So he was lying? Gordon was just scared of the Joker and hiding from him or something in your opinion? Why do you think he faked his death, then?

Rachel's death and Harvey's disfigurement are perfect examples of why Gordon was completely justified and showing a considerable amount of foresight in faking his death. With Gordon dead, the Joker has no reason to go after Gordon's family. With Gordon alive, the Joker has EVERY reason to go after Gordon's family to use as leverage.

How is this not obvious?

In terms of Gordon's "foresight in faking his own death" are you telling me that he planned on the Joker being disguised as a police officer in the memorial service, waited until the Joker shot at the mayor, carefully jumped in front of the mayor (but in a way as to make sure he himself wasn't killed), all from the start. There is no way that Gordon's little trick could have been planned out in advance. Even you have to admit that that would make no sense.

 

[Lynx]

No, I don't think that's so. Spider-Man 3 and X-Men 3 were both better than Batman Begins. Made more money too.

. . .

What.

Please tell me you meant Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2. At least that'd make some sense.

 

[ProjectX2]

. . .

What.

Please tell me you meant Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2. At least that'd make some sense.

Exactly. :lol:

 

[Langsta]

What if, in Nolan's universe, Batman trained a small army of unidentified bat-boys called "Nite-wings" instead of just training a single ward at one time. Maybe if Bane comes to town and beats the **** out of Bats, the Nite-wings fill in for him instead of Azrael.

The Tumbler was inspired by The Dark Knight Returns, so Robin could be inspired by The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

In terms of Gordon's "foresight in faking his own death" are you telling me that he planned on the Joker being disguised as a police officer in the memorial service, waited until the Joker shot at the mayor, carefully jumped in front of the mayor (but in a way as to make sure he himself wasn't killed), all from the start. There is no way that Gordon's little trick could have been planned out in advance. Even you have to admit that that would make no sense.

It may have been that he took a bullet that injured him but didn't kill him, and he took that opportunity to fake his death there and then. He may have been planning to fake his death for a while, but had no specific plan. He saw that chance at the Commissioners memorial and took it.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

No, I don't think that's so. Spider-Man 3 and X-Men 3 were both better than Batman Begins. Made more money too.

And Iron Man is definitely no more than a normal super-hero movie.

to say they're better are just opinions. When you really look at it, Begins actually has substance. Spiderman 3 was not. It was cheesy at times. It was fun as well. I enjoyed the movie so really I have no complaints on it. It was Spiderman and he's not really a serious and glooming character like batman. X-men could really go either way but the franchise was pretty much lackluster as a whole. The movies were enjoyable but they didn't go anywhere. They led to the destruction of so many characters in the way that you didn't even care if they died. No deaths really had meaning. Sure Jean dies all dramatically but you don't care. It's jackman being the lead role in every movie. Halle Berry complaining she's not going to finish the trilogy unless she gets more air time. SO what do they do? They do away with some of the core cast just to make room. Rogue's storyline was hardly gut wrenching. If anything, that whole bit could have been taken out and it wouldn't have been missed. You could literally skip those parts and the movie wouldn't miss a beat. WHy? Because it was pointless! It didn't go anywhere and nothing really resulted from it. It just happened and the writers and director felt you should know. It didn't wrap up the story or really help it in anyway.

Sales don't really have much to do with it. Some of the best Cult Classics did ****e at the box office. Boondock Saints, Big Lebowski etc.

 

[Foolsfolly]

What if, in Nolan's universe, Batman trained a small army of unidentified bat-boys called "Nite-wings" instead of just training a single ward at one time. Maybe if Bane comes to town and beats the **** out of Bats, the Nite-wings fill in for him instead of Azrael.

The Tumbler was inspired by The Dark Knight Returns, so Robin could be inspired by The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Why not just call them the Sons of Batman ala DKR?

But seriously, no. It made sense in DKR that Batman, a sixty year old in tights, would want his own small army to train and preach his ideals to. But a 30 year old Batman on the run from the police, hounded by mafia, and tormented by nightmares of what the Joker did in about 3 days time....he wouldn't want anyone to share that kind of responsibility.

He lost Rachael and Dent. He became a torturing, wire-tapping, creepy "Isn't it beautiful" guy to defeat the Joker. I don't think he'll want to burden anyone else like that.

And remember, that fake Batman leader got cut up and hung by the Joker. And Batman's wanted for murder of Gotham's "White Knight" hard to find people willing to sign up for that cause.

And thanks DIB for pointing out Harvey's gone.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I think in a perfect world where Nolan and Bale worked on Batman and nothing else for the rest of their lives, without losing the passion for the character and the world, Robin would be fine for a future entry into the series...

But this is still too early in his career for Robin to come into play. Batman needs to really sink into darkness, so that little ray of light IS a very necessary thing.... I don't think Robin is impossible to fit into this universe, but he absolutely should not appear in the third film.

 

[Gemini]

you know what?

they're shouldn't be a third, they could never top this movie, they should just quit while on they're on top, because look what happened to Spider-Man, and X-Men,

these two movies stand fantastic on their own, the ending of DK while it does imply continued adventures, also serves as a closing statement. everything was tied together nicely there wasn't any real loose threads.

yes I want more of a good thing, but seriously, they shouldn't make another movie unless it's a story they feel they absolutely must tell and it lives up to the last two.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I'd rather have Nolan/bale back then see it continue without them, which it doubtlessly would.

 

[Random]

Okay I just got back from seeing it in I-Max, which was awesome, And I have a few point to confirm.

Joker didn't lie about Dent's/Rachel's location. In the scene with Joker at the hospital his apologizes to Dent that he wasn't even handling the explosives and Maroni's men screwed up the locations.

And the guy who Dent almost shoots after Gordon got shot is not the mad hatter, his name was Joseph Shcimit or something along those lines

Those are pretty good points to be sure. In my opinion what makes Dent tragic isn't that he died (if you believe that sort of thing), but that he became Two-Face. To me at least we never saw "Two-Face" instead we got a really pissed off Dent who is scarred. I think that if handled properly, showing Two-Face's descent into crime would add an additional tragicness to the character. He was once a man who fought crime and symbolized hope and a new beginning to Gotham, and now he has become the very thing that he used to fight, a criminal. Him sticking around would be a constant reminder to Batman of his failure (in not stopping the Joker), and would serve as motivation never to let it happen again.

That's pretty good imagery but I can't see Dent turning to crime, it just doesn't seem logical

But honestly can anyone explain to me how Gordon playing dead would protect his family?

Well he is a target of the Joker's being Batman's only known liaison and the number one clean cop in the city. He did want them pulled into it like Rachel was.

 

[ProjectX2]

Joker didn't lie about Dent's/Rachel's location. In the scene with Joker at the hospital his apologizes to Dent that he wasn't even handling the explosives and Maroni's men screwed up the locations.

That's kinda lame. I liked the idea that Joker lied just to further manipulate Batman.

 

[Foolsfolly]

That's kinda lame. I liked the idea that Joker lied just to further manipulate Batman.

That's because he did lie.

[The Joker, dressed in a nurse uniform and wig, visits Harvey "Two-Face" in the hospital. He shoots a police officer before walking over to Harvey's bedside]
The Joker: [raising the upper-half of the bed up, mutters a tune while doing so] La, de, la, de, la, de, lum [takes off his surgical mask]
[Harvey immediately becomes enraged and struggles to get out of the bed he's tied to]
The Joker: [sits down by the bed, sighs and with a sympathetic tone and forced smile] Hiii... [takes off his wig as Harvey stops struggling, shaking his hair back into its messy state with his hands] You know, I don't want there to be any hard feelings between us, Harvey. When you and uhh Ra--
Two-Face: RACHEL!
The Joker: [motions his hands before him as he talks] Rachel were being abducted, I was sitting in Gordon's cage. Now uh I-I didn't rig those charges.
Two-Face: Your men, your plan.
The Joker: [serious, smirks slowly] Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? [Two-Face tries to raise his arms] I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know... I just do things. The mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know... they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say-- [grabs Harvey's hand, Harvey struggles a little] eh, come here. When I say that you and your girlfriend [slowly slaps Harvey's hand a couple of times] was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. [starts unstrapping Harvey's wrists from one side] It's the schemers... [goes to the other side] that put you where you are. You were a schemer. You had plans. And uhh [starts unstrapping Harvey's other wrist] look where that got ya.
[Once Harvey's other wrist is free, he attempts to grab The Joker, the two struggling with each other until The Joker grabs a hold of Harvey's hands, moving them from side to side]
The Joker: I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and [sing-song tone] I turned it on itself. [Harvey stops struggling, The Joker looking down at him] Look at what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hm? You know-you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go [does the quote-fingers] "according to plan". Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I told the press that if like a gang-banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up... nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die... [hysterical tone, stuttering slightly] WELL THEN EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS! [lets go of Harvey's hands and pulls out a gun, the handle facing Harvey] Introduce a little anarchy. [puts the gun into Harvey's hand, cocking the gun] Upset the established order, then everything becomes... chaos. [guides the gun to his own forehead, smacking his lips]I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair. [closes his eyes, waiting for Harvey to pull the trigger]
Two-Face: [looks down, pulls out his lucky coin with his free hand and shows the "heads" side to The Joker] You live.
The Joker: Mmm-hm [smacks lips together].
Two-Face: [turns coin around, showing the burnt, "tails" side] You die.
The Joker: Hmmm, now we're talking.

 

[Random]

The Joker: [motions his hands before him as he talks] Rachel were being abducted, I was sitting in Gordon's cage. Now uh I-I didn't rig those charges.
Two-Face: Your men, your plan.
The Joker: [serious, smirks slowly] Do I really look like a guy with a plan?

This I took as him saying it was his idea, but he didn't rig the charges and wasn't present during the kidnappings so things didn't go right

 

[Foolsfolly]

I took it as another lie. Why would we ever believe anything the Joker says? He also goes on to say that he never had plans. He just does things. Way too much happens in his favor for that to be true.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

The Joker saying he doesn't have a plan is the biggest Joke he tells in the movie. He had this all planned down to the tee.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

. . .

What.

Please tell me you meant Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2. At least that'd make some sense.

I really don't like Batman Begins at all.





Anyway, I'd rather have a non-Nolan/Bale Batman movie than no other Batman movie at all the rest of my life. I really think they ultimately need to James Bond him, come out with a new individual movie every couple of years, switch actors/writers/directors when necessary.

 

[Goodwill]

They don't need to James Bond Batman. Especially after this one. As I said, I don't think they should even make a third (although they will with how many records this movie is making). They need to quit while they're ahead and then look back and look at the crown jewel they made Batman after those lousy 90's Batman movies.