Avengers The New Avengers Special: The Illuminati Discussion (Spoilers)

TheManWithoutFear

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This was great. Bendis really hit home with a lot of these characters.

Just off the cuff (as usual), we get Iron Man, Black Bolt, Namor, Dr. Strange, Reed Richards, Professor Xavier all meeting in Wakanda at Black Panther's castle. This is sometime soon after the Kree-Skrull where Tony states that need some sort of emergency council to regulate. Immediately Panther backs out and asks them to leave.

The next incident involves a meeting after The Hulk apparently has rampaged through Vegas. This makes the events of Planet Hulk very clear and actually very exciting. So they're sitting around wondering what to do about Banner. They come to the conclusion that he has to be removed somehow. Namor's pissed about this but the others all have seem to have had some sort of situation where they've tried to help Banner that all ended fruitlessly. Namor and Tony exchange words and the two end up in a bit of a fight. Namor storms off and threatens that if anything happens to Banner he'll wage war.

The third time they meet is to discuss the Bill of Registration that the government is about to pass. Xavier has been missing since the HoM which Tony referrs to which is interesting because doesn't he play dumb about it in New Avengers and the last issue of HoM? But anyway the act is broughout up and Dr. Strange immediately is disgusted by it and leaves. Namor says he'll wage war again if they try to come after him and leaves. Black Bolt seemingly is angry about it and leaves too. Leaving Tony and Reed. Reed leaves to "go fight with his wife about the subject" and Tony is left all alone.

5/5

What I give you doesn't do the issue justice and I'm sorry I didn't buy the issue because it was almost perfect and I'm leaving out some stuff (a particular interaction between SHIELD director Hill and Tony). The characterizations, the art (I miss Alex Maleev), the mentions of various marvel events. I would love to hear any complaints about this issue. I can't wait for Civil War.
 

MoS

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I would love to hear any complaints about this issue. I can't wait for Civil War.

Okay, I wasn't going to post this, but here you go:

Good characterization and lines for Black Panther and Namor. Everyone else? Sounds exactly alike, and WORSE, they sound like any character out of Bendis' "street level" books when it's completely inappropriate for their characters - often they sounded more like bored club members than some of the world's smartest men. Everyone uses the same Bendis speaking tics: "I want to tell you", "I want to say", "Let me tell you" - there were a few point where I had to trace the arcing dialog balloons to their source to figure out who was talking, because what they were saying didn't differentiate them.

Having Iron Man tell us the plot of Civil War #1 as an advanced prognostication, when we've read countless previews was a waste of page space, especially since the preview was included.

If you read Planet Hulk and the Hulk series, much of the book made sense - if you hadn't - like me - those scenes made very little sense. Is it good that they are linking other titles? Only if you've read the other title they are linking to already.

The issue is, in essence, a What If? issue ("What if there was once this really cool group of superhero leaders that got together to talk about stuff but couldn't agree and broke up.")

The no ads thing was nice...
 
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Bass

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Rhyo said:
Okay, I wasn't going to post this, but here you go:

Good characterization and lines for Black Panther and Namor. Everyone else? Sounds exactly alike, and WORSE, they sound like any character out of Bendis' "street level" books when it's completely inappropriate for their characters - often they sounded more like bored club members than some of the world's smartest men. Everyone uses the same Bendis speaking tics: "I want to tell you", "I want to say", "Let me tell you" - there were a few point where I had to trace the arcing dialog balloons to their source to figure out who was talking, because what they were saying didn't differentiate them.

Having Iron Man tell us the plot of Civil War #1 as an advanced prognostication, when we've read countless previews was a waste of page space, especially since the preview was included.

If you read Planet Hulk and the Hulk series, much of the book made sense - if you hadn't - like me - those scenes made very little sense. Is it good that they are linking other titles? Only if you've read the other title they are linking to already.

The issue is, in essence, a What If? issue ("What if there was once this really cool group of superhero leaders that got together to talk about stuff but couldn't agree and broke up.")

The no ads thing was nice...

From what I heard about the comic prior to its release, and MWOF's description, I'd have to agree with Rhyo. Bendis is a total sell-out. Not because he can't write dialogue and because he's doing well. No. Because he went on and on about how crappy comics require fanboy knowledge of their universe to understand, and for the last three years he's writing inbred comic series where you need to read three other titles to make sense of it. Blech.

That said, I love Alex Maleev. I'm going to download this thing.
 

E

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I didn't care for the art. I was expecting more...it tied things together but I was hoping for more of an explanation. It was meh. I'm not a big Maleev fan.

2.5/5
 

MoS

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TheManWithoutFear said:
Well, I loved it.

Bass is right, that IS what matters.

For me, I come from a very literature-intensive background. How a story is written and structured often matters as much to me as what is going on in the story, they are integral to my enjoyment. I'm not good at being a "passive" reader and just letting the story roll out in front of me.
 

ultimatedjf

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What was BlackBolt "saying" at the end there?


And also, I read that preview at the end, and I don't see how that even ties into Civil War besides the fact that it's in Civil War. :?
 

Fredrik Martinsson

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ultimatedjf said:
What was BlackBolt "saying" at the end there?
I think he says that he is on Iron Man and Reeds side.
Edit: See new post lower down.

ultimatedjf said:
And also, I read that preview at the end, and I don't see how that even ties into Civil War besides the fact that it's in Civil War. :?
That is one of the major actions taken that ends with many civilian casualties and makes the government to propose the registration act that will start the Civil War.
 
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TheManWithoutFear

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ultimatedjf said:
What was BlackBolt "saying" at the end there?
I thought he was telling them to **** themselves. I can see the Inhumans being in the same boat as Namor just not as aggressive about it. If they have to register this isolated society will eventually have to be integrated with the rest of civilization. I don't know much about 616 Inhumans but I thought they were pretty content being away from everything as they are.

Also, about the preview.

Nitro, the villain. Is he the same guy that was hired to take out Matt Murdock in the "Underboss" arc?
 

Fredrik Martinsson

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I thought he was telling them to **** themselves. I can see the Inhumans being in the same boat as Namor just not as aggressive about it. If they have to register this isolated society will eventually have to be integrated with the rest of civilization. I don't know much about 616 Inhumans but I thought they were pretty content being away from everything as they are.
After I have read through the issue again I agree.
 

ultimatedjf

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Ultimate Warrior said:
After I have read through the issue again I agree.


When I "acted out" the little hand motion that he did, it almost seemed like he was pretending to fire a gun. You know how, to signify the blam, you raise the pointer finger (in between panel 2 and 3)?
 

MaxwellSmart

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Bendis is a great writer. He set up Millar's civil war mini nicely. I was surprised at seeing Namor so passionately defending the Hulk his foreshadowing of the Hulks return from Planet Hulk. I was also surprised to see Tony and Reed pushing for everyone to surrender their civil liberties just because they probably wouldn't win if they apposed it and a lot of innocents would die. I always pictured them as both men of science and ideals, but I guess it is hard to stand up for something you believe won't achieve anything. I would have rather seen a different artist handle the one-shot though. It seemed very old fashioned.

5/5
 

MoS

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I'm going to wander off topic (sorry, Ice): one of the things that drives me insane about comics are the hordes of ******* internet fans. (Obviously I am not talking about anyone here on UC. :roll: Well, maybe a few...)

Over on Newsarama, there is an Illuminati Q&A forum, where Bendis has said that he will answer Illuminati questions in a batch format. 90% of the questions (maybe more) are idiotic and incredibly rude and just... stupid. Some of the questions are from people who haven't even READ the issue (despite the request in the text of the main message that questions only come from people who have read it).

Did I like the Illuminati issue? Not particularly, though I thought it was at least an atempt to do a thoughtful look at the roots causes, and it's more Bendis' writing tics that I didn't like than the IDEA of the issue. The criticisms I have are about writing and style and execution. Do I think that Bendis is interested in what I think? Not in the slightest. Would I go into a thread and harrangue him over it in crude language? Hell, no. What is the point? Do people think they are "clever" for acting like brainless idiots?

Gah. Someone needs to invent a "brain engaged?" moderating feature for internet posts. In computer tech speak, PEBCAK. In fact, if I had that moderating feature, I'd probably delete this entire post... anyway, some of the answers in that Newsarama forum might be interesting.
 

Bass

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I read the issue and I don't even think the idea is that good.

The Marvel Universe heroes can take on Galactus, Thanos, The Beyonder, Mephisto... but not the US congress.

What authority does the US congress have over Namor? Or Black Bolt? Neither of whom should really care. THEY DON'T HAVE SECRET IDENTITIES. THEY ANSWER TO THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

I fail to see how the US passing a bill on superheroes having to register themselves is at all a threat to Atlantis or Attilan.

It's like Japan, which states the age of sexual consent is 14, getting all saber-rattling because America passes a bill that says in the US, the age of sexual consent is 16. Doesn't make any sense.

It's their own laws. Black Bolt and Namor aren't superheroes like Iron Man or Spider-Man. Hell, not even the Fantastic Four are. The US congress can't pass a bill that affects the sovereign rights of other nations. Anyone of any nationality other than US is completely immune to the bill.

I know, because having a dual-nationality means I don't have to be conscripted into the Egyptian army.

Which means Black Bolt and Namor, both of whom have been repeatedly shown as not caring about internal affairs of man (only when it concerns their domains or the welfare of the entire planet) are actually concerned because Spider-Man and Daredevil will have to reveal their secret identities, and that mutants will have to be catalogued. I suppose you could argue "oh, but if superhumans are registered, then it does affect the entire welfare of the planet and thus them" but you'd be wrong, because these cultures outdate the US and would survive the internal turmoil of US civil unrest.

So this is just nonsense.

And it's old. Superhuman registration was a new idea in Watchmen twenty years ago. Around the same time Byrne and Claremont had a terrifying future in which mutants were *gasp* forced to register their names and powers with the government or be... arrested!

And then there's the concept of the Illuminati's response to Hulk. Let's forgo the nonsense that blasting him into space for eternity is the best option (because letting him life in a beautiful artificial ecosystem on say, the moon, would just be outrageously cruel) - I doubt that the Hulk is a greater threat to the world than say - Doctor Doom. Or Juggernaut. Or Magneto. Or Galactus. Or any numbers of villains who have been the center of a gigantic crossover in the past. But it's okay if they're locked up so they can inevitably escape because Banner can't control the Hulk. Oh he tries, but he can't. And that's why we've got to catapult him into another space and time. But these villains who swear revenge and have no desire to control their evil impulses - well, we gotta let 'em get up to their own antics.

And let's forgo the fact that the Illuminati has been 'behind the scenes' of everything Marvel for about, 12 months, ever since Bendis dreamed them up, and not for years.

I can't help but think this would've been a lot better if the Avengers Disassembled debacle had actually CREATED the Illuminati. That they were formed because of that. And then we got to see it play out in the shadows slowly, with members coming and going, and seeing them have to respond to certain threats, rather than the accelerated, inconsistent retconning we've been getting.

What does interest me is how Spidey will react when he hears that Iron Man is FOR the registration act, since Spidey will no doubt, feel betrayed. That will be interesting indeed.

But the rest, it just doesn't work for me at all. It's just idiotic.
 
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Living Large

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What authority does the US congress have over Namor? Or Black Bolt? Neither of whom should really care. THEY DON'T HAVE SECRET IDENTITIES. THEY ANSWER TO THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

I fail to see how the US passing a bill on superheroes having to register themselves is at all a threat to Atlantis or Attilan.

It's like Japan, which states the age of sexual consent is 14, getting all saber-rattling because America passes a bill that says in the US, the age of sexual consent is 16. Doesn't make any sense.

It's their own laws. Black Bolt and Namor aren't superheroes like Iron Man or Spider-Man. Hell, not even the Fantastic Four are. The US congress can't pass a bill that affects the sovereign rights of other nations. Anyone of any nationality other than US is completely immune to the bill.

Nicely said. I had not considered this whole point of view after reading the synopsis (no, i have not read the issue yet...not till Saturday).

Why would either of those characters respond at all? Both might look at each other and shrug thinking "this bill doesn't affect either of us because we are not American Citizens and it can not be enforced upon us."

Now, Namor is prone to jumping off the handle and in this case, they can not force him to buckle under the iron fist of the US Government. Period. Any attempt to do so could be construed as an act of war (which is basically what he states in no uncertain terms). Likewise for Blackbolt.

Perhaps both of thier reactions were therefore appropriate... considering some of the current US foreign policies...
 
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Bass

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Yes, but the problem is - why would they expect the USA to try to enforce the bill in their nations?

Whether you think the US goes around enforcing their domestic policies on other countries is not the point - Atlantis and Attilan are nations in which no costumed superheroes exist. Every citizen of Atillan has superpowers, and those powers are already known to the court on which Black Bolt resides. Atlanteans have 'superpowers', but those powers are completely natural to Atlanteans. The concept of superhero registration makes NO SENSE in regards to Atillan and Atlantis. The concept of Namor and Black Bolt thinking that the US will try to make them register is completely preposterous. What? Namor thinks that the US will demand he gives them a census stating that their people are superhumanly strong, and can breathe underwater? THEY KNOW THAT ALREADY. Do they both expect the US to demand their census? It's public information in their own countries, why would the US or the UN intelligence agencies not already have them? Surely SHIELD has this information.

Their reactions, if about protecting their own countries, make no sense at all. And their reactions can't be about defending Peter Parker's rights because they've shown time and again they just don't care.

I'm running out of words to say how imbecilic this is.
 
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Living Large

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Yes, but the problem is - why would they expect the USA to try to enforce the bill in their nations?

Fair enough. I suspect that we are seeing the authors beliefs and/or point of view coming out in his writing (even though Marvel denies such). That is probably not appropriate in this case and something, as you are saying, is lost by doing so. Bendis certainly isn't as eloquent as Millar when dealing with policitally charged stories...

Perhaps both (Namor and Blackbolt) are worried that the US superheros are going to attempt to enforce this new bill on thier nations and that the statements made by Iron Man could easily be viewed as threatening and/or as a direct threat.

I agree that Spider-man's reaction to Iron Mans stance will be very interesting.
 
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