The Post-Flashpoint DC Comics Reboot

Friday said:
Didn't it become Action Comics Weekly around that time?

So yeah, I'm flabberghasted by this. Why have they been so god damned gung ho about returning everyone to thier silver age versions if they're hitting reset? And god help them if Kyler Rayner and Guy Gardner aren't promeniently featured in a book. Preferably together.

As for My Legion comics, we're used to this ****.
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Yeah, I'm kinda baffled too with the Silver Age bait and switch.


I'd love to see Hal on GL and Kyle/Guy/Jon on Corps. It was great before, it could be great after the reboot.
 
Planet-man said:
I haven't been following it, but won't this blow away several years of earthshattering Batman stuff? The Death and Return of Bruce Wayne, Batman Inc, etc.? Are fans not going to go into mass exodus over this?
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They aren't rebooting the line. It sounds like there's just going to be some continuity shifts, with the size of the shifts depending on the franchise. I suspect Batman will be all but untouched. The rumor is that there's going to be a Barbara Gordon Batgirl book and a Nightwing, but I'd imagine that's the extent of the change on that front. It sounds like Superman and Wonder Woman will get some pretty major changes. It seems to me that giving those titles over to JMS were intended as a swan song for the old versions, much the same way as Alan Moore's Whatever Happened... was before the late eighties reboot. Green Lantern and Batman are the two big DC franchises right now, with top name writers, and in the midst of ongoing plot that doesn't look like it will wrap before the reboot. So I'm guessing they'll remain almost entirely untouched. Similarly, I'd imagine all the characters that Johns was playing with in Brightest Day will cling pretty tightly to the latest takes on them. And it looks like they'll be using this as an impetus to fold in some Wildstorm properties to the universe proper. And don't forget Gates of Gotham, which is supposed to be there to tighten up the status quo of Gotham proper.

But it doesn't sound like they're jumping back to new origins. They're just using the alternate timeline crap to tighten up and refocus the lines that have been floundering recently. I mean, we also have Multiversity coming down the pipeline, and that links back to a litany of Morrison stories too.

It looks like, scattered around the web, there's speculation for about what roughly half of these titles are going to be. I've got a night free for the first time in forever, and a mind that doesn't want to dwell on anything of value ATM, so I may try to get a list together a little later.
 
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So, compiling lists means I don't have to think about relationships.

They've announced 52 #1 relaunches. I'll assume this only applies to DC universe books and only to ongoing books rather than minis. It also seems possible they may launch a second wave of books the next month, but for now, I'll assume they're all part of the 52.

Announced Books
1. Justice League (Johns/Lee. Confirmed with the reboot news)
2. Batwoman (Williams/Reeder. Announced. Postponed to avoid a back-to-back reboot)
3. Hawkman (Robinson. Announced by Robinson during con season. BC speculates Philip Tan to be the artist)
4. Aquaman (Johns/Reis. Announced by Johns during con season)
5. Justice League International (Winnick, possibly? Announced at the end of Generation Lost)
6. A Red Lantern Corps book (Peter Milligan. Announced previously. Title uncertain)

Presumed Launches
(Books that seem like entirely sure shots, either due to the character legacy or the legacy of the publication)
7. Action Comics
8. Detective Comics (Either of the above possibly in anthology format? They could possibly be dumped or switched to some non-monthly format, but that seems drastic)
9. Batman
10. Superman (Rumors from CBR peg this on Morrison. It seems likely he'd take either Superman or Action, but there's no way to say for sure. Could be a new title)
11. Wonder Woman (reaffirmed by CBR)
12. Green Lantern (reaffirmed by CBR. Speculation Johns stays on)
13. Green Lantern Corps

Rumored by CBR
(CBR claims to have spoken to a few insiders. They seem confident in the sources, but most of their news is for already announced or otherwise guaranteed books)
14. Teen Titans (early speculation of Nicieza as the writer, since debunked by the man himself. Scott Lobdell mentioned since)
15. Justice Society of America (new writer, Guggenheim departing)
16. Birds of Prey (Gail Simone departing)

Rumored by Bleeding Cool
(Rich Johnston spent all day posting rumors from the community about the relaunches but has admitted some will likely turn out to be true. They generally seem more spurious than the sure-shot CBR announcements)
17. Adventure Comics (Starring Deadman. Tomasi or Simone seem like likely candidates. Ryan Sook rumored on art)
18. Rainbow Corps (Title uncertain. some book involving a member of each Lantern corps. Tyler Kirkham rumored on art)
19. Firestorm (Brian Clevinger rumored to be involved early on, then dropped. Uncertain if it will go on, but it seems pretty clear Brightest Day was supposed to be a launching pad for no. 1's, so it seems almost a certainty it will exist in some form)
20. Legion Lost (Apparently another reboot of the Legion of Super Heroes)
21. OMAC (Scott Kolins first mentioned. The new bet seems to be on Didio writing (ew) with Giffen illustrating)
22. Batgirl (Starring Barbara Gordon. Simone seems like the obvious choice, but there's also the long shot this is Johns' old All Star Batgirl book being resuscitated?)
23. Nightwing
24. My Greatest Adventure (Announced officially at the end of Weird Worlds. to star Garbage Man and Tanga. It could just turn out to be a mini, though)
25. Grifter (the Vertigo character, now folded into the DCU)

It also seems like a no brainer that we'll see a Flash #1 and possibly a Supergirl #1. There's no doubt we'll see at least one book starring Swamp Thing and/or John Constantine, given their push at the end of Brightest Day. We'll likely see a few of the bigger Wildstorm properties sprinkled about and maybe one or two other Vertigo books. Green Lantern seems pretty filled out, but I have no doubt there will be at least a couple more Batman books.

And I guess that's it.

Drinking alone time!
 
Secret Six, Jonah Hex, Booster Gold, Suicide Squad, Robin, Kid Flash, The Authority, WildC.A.T.S., Gen13, Hellblazer, Swamp Thing...
 
52 is too many. If the point is to get new readers on, and presumably by restarting ALL the books they are trying to get a wide range of readers reading a wide range of books - it needs to be less. Books like Action Comics and Detective Comics could be used as anthology formats if they really feel the need to get the number of characters out that they seem to.

Chuck Rozanski wrote an article a few years ago that I thought was pretty good:

I believe that Ronald O. Perelman outperformed Wertham in the harm that he inflicted on the comics industry. When he took over ownership of Marvel comics in 1989, Marvel was coming off of a series of record years of both sales and earnings. Part of that growth in earnings had been based on the popularity of the Marvel line of characters, but even more derived from the fact that New World Pictures (Marvel's previous owner) had raised prices by 50% (from 65 cents to $1) during its 3-year ownership of the company. While these price increases help generate significant short-term profits, they also ate away at the core of Marvel's business, those fans who were purchasing the entire line of comics published by the company each month.

Sadly, Perelman severely aggravated this problem by raising prices by another 100% over the next seven years, and by increasing the total line of Marvel titles from approximately 60 when he took over, to nearly 140 different monthly issues at the peak. Calculating the math in this scenario is fairly easy. In 1985, comics were 60 cents. With 40 regular Marvel titles being printed, it cost a typical fan $24.00 to purchase every Marvel comic book being printed. That left plenty of disposable income left over for trade paperbacks, toys, and other related Marvel goods. Even for collectors of modest means, it was possible to be a "Marvel Zombie" for only $6 per week.

By 1988, the number of Marvel titles had increased to 50, and the base cover price was $1. At a $50 total cost, that was a 110% increase in the cost it took to buy the complete Marvel line in just 36 months.
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That said, this is assuming that the cover/digital price is going to remain the same, which is probably a pretty safe bet.

Maybe I'm wrong and that's not the goal here, but it sure seems like it is, and if so, they're doing it wrong.
 
E said:
52 is too many. If the point is to get new readers on, and presumably by restarting ALL the books they are trying to get a wide range of readers reading a wide range of books - it needs to be less. Books like Action Comics and Detective Comics could be used as anthology formats if they really feel the need to get the number of characters out that they seem to.

Chuck Rozanski wrote an article a few years ago that I thought was pretty good:



That said, this is assuming that the cover/digital price is going to remain the same, which is probably a pretty safe bet.

Maybe I'm wrong and that's not the goal here, but it sure seems like it is, and if so, they're doing it wrong.
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Why does it need to be less? Why can't people buy the books they want? I don't get it. In fact, the point of that article (and it seems a shaky point to me) is indicative of the very problem DC is looking to counter. Ir presupposes that comic books should be founded on a business model of support by a hardcore base that buys everything. We've seen how that works, right? But that's not the audience they're looking at. They're looking at people who read more casually, who want a diverse variety of stories to pick and choose from, and if that doesn't work, they can certainly winnow back the numbers. Fifty-two isn't an exceptionally large number in this market.

btw, new official announcements on ten of the relaunches here, along with cover art.... That's a LOT of former artists taking over writing gigs. Most of it's not very exciting.
 
ProjectX2 said:
Secret Six, Jonah Hex, Booster Gold, Suicide Squad, Robin, Kid Flash, The Authority, WildC.A.T.S., Gen13, Hellblazer, Swamp Thing...
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I refuse to get excited about a Wildcats or Authority reboot. I got burned last time.
 
I will definitely read Wonder Woman and Aquaman but the others... I don't know.
 
So, new Firestorm book. I'm interested there as long as Jason Rush is in it. I was a big fan of his previous run. And gail Simone writing it hardly hurts.

I'll likely stick with the GL Related books.

And a Grifter series set in the DCU intrigues me. As long as a creative team that doesn't suck is on board I'd give it a shot.

As for another Legion Reboot, I really hope its a retool and not a total reboot. The new Levitz Legion has been pretty solid (With a giant Harmonia Lee shaped hole) and I'd be pretty upset to loose it.
 
Zombipanda said:
Ir presupposes that comic books should be founded on a business model of support by a hardcore base that buys everything. We've seen how that works, right?
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Yeah we have - more readers bought more titles! They sold much more comics back then (this is pre-90s I'm talking about). The article I posted - written by a comic retailer - noted that at that time, a comic wasn't even considered a success unless it sold 250,000. It was when Marvel was bought out and they drastically increased the cover price and added many more titles (most of them completely mediocre at best) that the drop-off began; people stopped buying everything, and (combined with a number of other factors) the market imploded and almost completely collapsed.

The point in time when the industry (read: Marvel) got away from selling everything to everyone is when things started going badly! Yes it sounds backward, but the numbers don't lie - fewer comics priced lower means more readers and higher profits.
 
E said:
Yeah we have - more readers bought more titles! They sold much more comics back then (this is pre-90s I'm talking about). The article I posted - written by a comic retailer - noted that at that time, a comic wasn't even considered a success unless it sold 250,000. It was when Marvel was bought out and they drastically increased the cover price and added many more titles (most of them completely mediocre at best) that the drop-off began; people stopped buying everything, and (combined with a number of other factors) the market imploded and almost completely collapsed.

The point in time when the industry (read: Marvel) got away from selling everything to everyone is when things started going badly! Yes it sounds backward, but the numbers don't lie - fewer comics priced lower means more readers and higher profits.
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The numbers don't lie but they are indicative of a certain time and a certain place. I'm not saying he's wrong (entirely), simply this... "Fewer comics priced lower meant more readers and higher profits." There's no way of saying the market would work the same today. Price raises are a factor of numerous things, one of the most prominent being gas prices. Inflation is a fact of life and it's hard to say if either Marvel or DC could achieve sustainability today with rock bottom prices and a limited number of titles. I for one, highly doubt it. Markets change and the audience changes, and with it, publishers need to find new ways to sustain sales. Do I think comics are priced too high? **** yeah. I can't rationalize buying floppies at the prices they are now. I think it's an antiquated system entirely, and that's why we've seen the rise of trade paperbacks. Should DC and Marvel have started exploring new formats long ago? Of course. On one end, cheaper print anthologies of new titles could fill a void in the consumables market and more exploration into non-monthly prestige formats could also be profitable. But the fact is, we aren't going to know what the solution is until companies experiment more. Markets grow. It's a necessity. What worked then won't necessarily work now, and 52 comics in this market isn't a ludicrous number, especially when you consider that a number of these books would previously have been folded into the Vertigo and Wildstorm imprints. The new pricing structure has already been announced, btw. 2.99 for digital and print out the gate, with digital prices dropping by a dollar a month later. But this is just the launch pricing. It's them testing the waters. I wouldn't be surprised to see a policy of digital pricing dropping to .99 a few months after publication and digital pricing dropping to 1.99 at launch. But saying "This is how it worked in the past and we had a bust, so we need to return to that model" just presumes a naive understanding of business.

As far as the quality of storytelling goes... Seriously? That's pure nostalgia talking. There are certainly flaws in the way the big two companies handle their storytelling, but I don't believe that the books of the past were quantitatively better than the books of the present.
 
E said:
Yeah we have - more readers bought more titles! They sold much more comics back then (this is pre-90s I'm talking about). The article I posted - written by a comic retailer - noted that at that time, a comic wasn't even considered a success unless it sold 250,000. It was when Marvel was bought out and they drastically increased the cover price and added many more titles (most of them completely mediocre at best) that the drop-off began; people stopped buying everything, and (combined with a number of other factors) the market imploded and almost completely collapsed.

The point in time when the industry (read: Marvel) got away from selling everything to everyone is when things started going badly! Yes it sounds backward, but the numbers don't lie - fewer comics priced lower means more readers and higher profits.
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He's partially right, but completely wrong at the same time. The market could and was bearing the flood of new books (working in a Comic Shop in a town of 25,000 at the time, we saw about a 500% customers and revenue). The bigger problem were the 40-somethings who thought this was the next big speculative market, after they damn near destroyed the sports card market. When they realized they weren't going to have the next Action Comics #1, they left the market. The numbers after the bubble burst were still on average about 25% higher than the pre-90's comic book bubble.

Comic retailers love to omit that both DC and Marvel's sales were so dismal in the 80's, both companies came close to closing their doors.

With that said, I still agree with E on digital pricing. Since coloring, and lettering (the last two parts of page creation) are 100% digital now, there's no overhead print cost. Period. Yes, paper's expensive, so is shipping physical units, but those should hold no bearing on the price of a digital issue.
 
Jaggyd said:
With that said, I still agree with E on digital pricing. Since coloring, and lettering (the last two parts of page creation) are 100% digital now, there's no overhead print cost. Period. Yes, paper's expensive, so is shipping physical units, but those should hold no bearing on the price of a digital issue.
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I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you there. The most exciting part for me, comes from the possibilities for indie comics. A writer and artist now have the means to get their product directly to their audience without having to negotiate the roadblocks set up by the Diamond/Big Two monopoly or dealing with the exorbitant costs inherent in small print runs. If the industry's going to survive, it's going to need diversity, and now there's an opportunity for practically anyone to get their stories out there. Or at least, we're sitting right on the cusp of that sort of market.

But it's good for DC and Marvel too. The direct market just isn't sustainable anymore, and the very concept of these disposable objects stuffed with ads and climbing prices (which, honestly, have just as much to do with sustainability than with greed) just seem archaic and useless to me. I can't fathom going to a comic book shop and buying floppies anymore. But they will have to lower their prices, and I think they'll recognize this. The current pricing structure by DC is about two things. It's about them reassuring the retailers and them just carefully gauging economic sustainability in the new market. It's a fresh format and they don't know what the pricing is going to be like yet, but I think they're both going to have to realize prices will have to drop, and unlike in print, they will actually have the luxury of making price cuts. And while I would have liked to see all the #1's released at .99 and later issues released at 1.99, I can perfectly understand why they're taking the tact they are. It's a new marketplace and it will take some time to figure out the right numbers.
 
Zombipanda said:
I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you there. The most exciting part for me, comes from the possibilities for indie comics. A writer and artist now have the means to get their product directly to their audience without having to negotiate the roadblocks set up by the Diamond/Big Two monopoly or dealing with the exorbitant costs inherent in small print runs. If the industry's going to survive, it's going to need diversity, and now there's an opportunity for practically anyone to get their stories out there. Or at least, we're sitting right on the cusp of that sort of market.

But it's good for DC and Marvel too. The direct market just isn't sustainable anymore, and the very concept of these disposable objects stuffed with ads and climbing prices (which, honestly, have just as much to do with sustainability than with greed) just seem archaic and useless to me. I can't fathom going to a comic book shop and buying floppies anymore. But they will have to lower their prices, and I think they'll recognize this. The current pricing structure by DC is about two things. It's about them reassuring the retailers and them just carefully gauging economic sustainability in the new market. It's a fresh format and they don't know what the pricing is going to be like yet, but I think they're both going to have to realize prices will have to drop, and unlike in print, they will actually have the luxury of making price cuts. And while I would have liked to see all the #1's released at .99 and later issues released at 1.99, I can perfectly understand why they're taking the tact they are. It's a new marketplace and it will take some time to figure out the right numbers.
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Oh I know, hell, the recording and movie industries still don't know how to price digital copies. I'm just thinking, if the Big Two maintain the print price for digital, the digital arena will be still born. The best idea would be incentives to buy both, like; you buy a trade, you get an insert card with a code to get the digital copy.
 
Jaggyd said:
Oh I know, hell, the recording and movie industries still don't know how to price digital copies. I'm just thinking, if the Big Two maintain the print price for digital, the digital arena will be still born. The best idea would be incentives to buy both, like; you buy a trade, you get an insert card with a code to get the digital copy.
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I agree, but it's sort of like slapping a band-aid on a gaping wound. And DC is trying that, to a degree. Justice League is launching at 3.99 for print or digital or 4.99 for both. Clearly it's a step in the right direction, but it strikes me as a little backwards. I think the ideal pricing would be to include a digital code in all the print issues, and lower the price for digital by itself. 3.99 for print and digital or 2.99 for digital alone. It's a tact that the music collector's industry is already taken. A lot of new vinyls are being released come with digital codes.

And on that note, I think the music industry is a pretty good analogy for how things are going to have to change. Comic shops don't have to die, but they do have to change, and I think they'll have to change in a way the music industry has in the past few years. When music downloads first came about, there was gloom and doom about the death of the record shop, but that didn't happen. Instead, we saw the rise of parallel markets. iTunes and similar online markets provide cheap and convenient music for the casual market. But at the same time, we've seen the reemergence of vinyl. There's a parallel market for audiophiles to buy product that offers them aural fidelity, tangible product, and status. Music stores sell music, while record stores sell a lifestyle and social outlet. It's a collector's market that isn't predicated on the same sort of dangerous speculation that we associate with the comic collector booms. They're similar markets, really. The print industry may have to start looking at new formats for the direct market: glossier and larger format books, extras not included in the digital versions, etc. (in the same way vinyl does), but ultimately it's going to come back to selling the experience of the shop. Shops that foster community will retain customers. Those that don't, won't.

I collect records, but I no longer collect comics, and it's entirely because of format. Floppy comics, as they're printed now, offer me nothing I want.
 
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