The strike is OVER. The S is O!!

[Ultimate Houde]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Wow

This last page of arguments made me chuckle.

E is producing rational argument points, and Lynx keeps going, "But they were fired!"

Which is why I'm with E on this one.

 

[E]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

It was a direct result of that, though. If the strike had ended quickly, or not even begun, this wouldn't have happened. Which is my point.

So...the writers are the ones refusing to work, but it's the studios fault for allowing them to refuse to work.

Read that carefully and try to tell me that it makes sense.

 

[Dancanread]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

That's not quite what they are saying, but if you want to compare it that way...aren't the studios basically saying that ALL of the writers will be paid the same - even the ones that aren't that good or, more accurately, are turning in scripts that get poor ratings?

As far as royalties and residuals for WGA members, i think the percentages would be the same yeah, as they have been, regardless of performance or ratings. The initial salary is what I think would vary.

The thing is even that 4 cents per DVD sale we're bandying about is in jeopardy, because as technology is moving faster and faster towards downloading and on-demand services off the web, dvd sales will dwindle. And without stipulations in place in a new contract for internet based media, that means in the future, they could conceivably be screwed out of ANY residuals or royalties from their work. Which means maybe about 20 A-list members total of the WGA could afford to keep working on their salaries alone.

E, I can see your point about certain culpability on both sides for the non-writers out of work. The entertainment industry is unfortunately unique in that there are so many different types of workers, and even unions, who depend on the others in order to make the work happen. But they all know this going in. And the majority of them are supportive of the strike even though they are out of work, if only because they would want the writers to be if a similar situation arose. Otherwise, everyone would just roll over and let themselves be screwed. It sucks, but to let yourself be written out of your job without a fight is unacceptable. it's about valuing yourself and your contribution, and recognizing and valuing others'. Stagehands on Broadway just ended a strike here in NY after about 2 weeks. There are rumors that the actors may strike again this summer when their contract is up for renegotiation.

And i thought i've read in many cases the non-writers were indeed fired, and not just laid off. But i'm not 100% on that. And the wealthier of the WGA members are doing what they can to compensate the crew out of their own pockets.

 

[E]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

As far as royalties and residuals for WGA members, i think the percentages would be the same yeah, as they have been, regardless of performance or ratings. The initial salary is what I think would vary.

The thing is even that 4 cents per DVD sale we're bandying about is in jeopardy, because as technology is moving faster and faster towards downloading and on-demand services off the web, dvd sales will dwindle. And without stipulations in place in a new contract for internet based media, that means in the future, they could conceivably be screwed out of ANY residuals or royalties from their work. Which means maybe about 20 A-list members total of the WGA could afford to keep working on their salaries alone.

E, I can see your point about certain culpability on both sides for the non-writers out of work. The entertainment industry is unfortunately unique in that there are so many different types of workers, and even unions, who depend on the others in order to make the work happen. But they all know this going in. And the majority of them are supportive of the strike even though they are out of work, if only because they would want the writers to be if a similar situation arose. Otherwise, everyone would just roll over and let themselves be screwed. It sucks, but to let yourself be written out of your job without a fight is unacceptable. it's about valuing yourself and your contribution, and recognizing and valuing others'. Stagehands on Broadway just ended a strike here in NY after about 2 weeks. There are rumors that the actors may strike again this summer when their contract is up for renegotiation.

And i thought i've read in many cases the non-writers were indeed fired, and not just laid off. But i'm not 100% on that. And the wealthier of the WGA members are doing what they can to compensate the crew out of their own pockets.

See, this is how you argue rationally. All great points.

You might be totally right about the people being fired; I don't have a link handy to back up my understanding that they were laid off. But I did find this from Variety:

The ax fell at "Saturday Night Live" on Friday morning.

Industry sources said that most of the show's below-the-line production staff was fired by NBC in light of the writers strike and the fact that the show hasn't produced a fresh seg since Nov. 3.

It was unclear exactly how many staffers were affected. Industry sources said it was upward of 50 people. NBC reps declined comment. Peacock sources said that a handful of staffers remained on the payroll.

"SNL" thesps have not been formally terminated but rather placed on an unpaid "hiatus" like many other thesps on shows shuttered by the strike -- a move that has raised red flags at the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists and Screen Actors Guild (Daily Variety, Nov. 16).

So even Variety is completely inaccurate in the titles of their articles - the workers are laid off. And it's because there is no work.

There is no way that their union(s) would allow them to be fired outright. Lawsuits would be filed immediately, and even if the unions did nothing I don't believe the studios *could* legally fire them in an instance like this.

Dan, your point about valuing yourself and not going down without a fight is perfectly valid and goes right along with what I've been saying from the beginning. *I* think they *do* deserve more and it *is* a problem that does need to be addressed. But not at the expense of people who will not benefit from it in the end.

But the whole respect thing goes two ways. I personally could not in good conscience ask my fellow workers whose livelihoods depend on my doing my job to support my fight to make slightly more money (comparatively) when I am totally locking them out of work, taking money out of their pocket and food out of their kids' mouths.

 

[E]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

If they aren't salary positions and these are paid hourly then I totally agree - it is a douchebag move on the studios part. But they aren't working anyway so it's not like they are missing out on money, and they have the writers to thank for that anyway!

You know, this is slightly off topic because again I don't believe any of these people have been *fired* but I just remembered an incident I was involved in about 8 years ago in which the company I was working for shut the plant down for 1 week in a temporary cost-cutting measure. We were all laid off for one week - even those of us who were paid hourly.

My only point is that there are instances where it could be necessary to lay off hourly employees. So I'm going to "take back" what I said about it being a douchebag-y move if the workers are hourly, even though I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Well, if they are still hired, they still get benefits, like Health insurance and dental insurance

So laying them off could mean that they no longer have these benefits.

 

[Lynx]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Wow

This last page of arguments made me chuckle.

E is producing rational argument points, and Lynx keeps going, "But they were fired!"

Which is why I'm with E on this one.

Them being fired was never my point at all. I even said I knew they weren't "fired", but was using that as a substitute for being laid off. My point was that it could have been prevented. Or, more accurately, that it isn't the writers' fault that the studios decided to lay off those people.

So...the writers are the ones refusing to work, but it's the studios fault for allowing them to refuse to work.

Read that carefully and try to tell me that it makes sense.

I don't know where you got that from. I was saying that the laying off of the cameramen and stagehands was a byproduct of the strike, one that was completely in the studios' hands. They could have negotiated quickly so they wouldn't have had to lay off all those people. But, let me jump to the other side of the fence.

Yes, the writers could have not gone on strike to prevent the studios from doing such a move. But, where would that have left the writers? What should they have done instead?

 

[E]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

the laying off of the cameramen and stagehands was a byproduct of the strike, one that was completely in the studios' hands

Do you seriously not understand the concept of a strike? You would make much more sense if you said that part of the blame has to be put on the studios, but you aren't even saying that.

They could have negotiated quickly so they wouldn't have had to lay off all those people.

:dead:

Yes, the writers could have not gone on strike to prevent the studios from doing such a move. But, where would that have left the writers? What should they have done instead?

*sigh*

I'm not going to kill this thread by repeating myself over and over and trying to argue points that don't have anything to do with what I'm talking about. Sorry. If you want to come back with rational, well thought out points like Dan then fine; I'll be glad to discuss it with you. But you're just making me talk in circles.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but you aren't listening to me so there's not much point in continuing.

 

[Lynx]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

EDIT: On second thought, you're right. Maybe I'm just not making myself clear. Maybe my thoughts are just getting muddled when I type them out. Forget it. I'm sorry to have dragged this out as long as I have. And I'm sorry for wasting your time, E.

 

[Random]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Crap there are way too many posts for me to quote each point.

First off, mole you're calculations are bunk, because you are using one of the highest grossing movies as a standard. Not every movie, show, or straight to dvd movie is going to make nearly that much. And one day the internet will take over as the major post theater medium then the writers will be getting 0% of that.

E, I appreciate your opinions on all the other workers having no jobs. I agree, it sucks. But I still think this needs to be done. They're not fighting for huge amounts of cash, but to secure the rights they've had (or are suppose to have) for the next 20 years. Not all writers have a salary, I believe only staff writers make individual contracts that can provide things like health care, but for most they don't have enough pull to get an affordable job like that, the WGA/AMPTP contract helps deliver a standard, so nobodies can have a decent contract and the studios dont have to go through negotiations with every writer they come across. So its very important that these writers make sure this contract works for the next 20 years or so. Most can't get the luxury of a salary job like on the Daily show or whatever, so these residuals are their version of insurance. It's what the need in case, god forbid, something bad happens for a family member. It's very important that they secure this. Cause again, its not just for the next few year, but the next twenty. It's something that need to get, not want, not would like, but need. Because if they dont all the middle to low rank writers are going to be absolutely screwed for the next twenty years.

Again it sucks that they have to strike to get this. It sucks that people can't work now. But I believe this matter is really important for the writers to not give up on. And t seems you really antagonize the writers, I know you said you're not taking sides, but you're looking at them as the cause of the job loss and I think you shouldn't. Their fighting for something really important and essential for them. But the studios aren't. They make the most from movies, they've said before they''ll give writers more residuals and they went back on their word, and are securing future mediums all to themselves. Though the writers are the ones that have gone on strike, it's the studios who forced it to happen

 

[E]

EDIT: On second thought, you're right. Maybe I'm just not making myself clear. Maybe my thoughts are just getting muddled when I type them out. Forget it. I'm sorry to have dragged this out as long as I have. And I'm sorry for wasting your time, E.

No no no - I didn't mean that you were wasting my time or that you're "wrong or anything like that. Yeesh - I'm really sorry if I came off that way - it was totally not my intent. Really - I'm sorry.

Now I feel like as big of a douchebag as the writers.







Seriously, though, Lynx - I apologize.

E, I appreciate your opinions on all the other workers having no jobs. I agree, it sucks. But I still think this needs to be done. They're not fighting for huge amounts of cash, but to secure the rights they've had (or are suppose to have) for the next 20 years. Not all writers have a salary, I believe only staff writers make individual contracts that can provide things like health care, but for most they don't have enough pull to get an affordable job like that, the WGA/AMPTP contract helps deliver a standard, so nobodies can have a decent contract and the studios dont have to go through negotiations with every writer they come across. So its very important that these writers make sure this contract works for the next 20 years or so. Most can't get the luxury of a salary job like on the Daily show or whatever, so these residuals are their version of insurance. It's what the need in case, god forbid, something bad happens for a family member. It's very important that they secure this. Cause again, its not just for the next few year, but the next twenty. It's something that need to get, not want, not would like, but need. Because if they dont all the middle to low rank writers are going to be absolutely screwed for the next twenty years.

Again it sucks that they have to strike to get this. It sucks that people can't work now. But I believe this matter is really important for the writers to not give up on. And t seems you really antagonize the writers, I know you said you're not taking sides, but you're looking at them as the cause of the job loss and I think you shouldn't. Their fighting for something really important and essential for them. But the studios aren't. They make the most from movies, they've said before they''ll give writers more residuals and they went back on their word, and are securing future mediums all to themselves. Though the writers are the ones that have gone on strike, it's the studios who forced it to happen

Random - your post reads like you are trying to convince me that the writers need or deserve this raise. I get it. I even agree.

You mention how important it is that the writers get a little more money - would you not agree that it's MORE important that the rest of the workers get paid ANY money?

And I'm sorry, but to write off a family's loss of income as something that just sucks or is unfortunate collateral damage seems extremely cold and callous to me.

Turn it around and ask - what if it was you? What if it was your house, kids, and family? How would YOU feel?

And then consider how you would feel if your union was TELLING you how to feel, or telling others how you feel.

 

[Bass]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

I don't think anyone's against writers trying to make money - but against the concept of "strike".

I'm curious - what other negotiating tools are available? There's "talking" and "striking". Surely there's more. Were they explored?

 

[Lynx]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

No no no - I didn't mean that you were wasting my time or that you're "wrong or anything like that. Yeesh - I'm really sorry if I came off that way - it was totally not my intent. Really - I'm sorry.

Now I feel like as big of a douchebag as the writers.



Seriously, though, Lynx - I apologize.

And, here, E, lies our fundamental problem. You and I seem to completely misread each other! :lol:

Don't be sorry. There's nothing to be sorry for. You and I just seem to completely misunderstand each other. It happens. And, due to that, it's better to let our argument lie.

 

[E]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

I don't think anyone's against writers trying to make money

No, but that seems to be the argument for it when the argument against it is that it is hurting many many other people.

 

[ultimatedjf]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Does anyone really want Garth Ennis (if he was only a tv writer) flipping your burgers?

no, because he gets ideas, the bad kind. An no one likes band aids in their ultimate cheeseburger.

In the future, that's a comic written by Bendis. And Issue 4 guest stars the Bandit Band-Aids.

 

[Random]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

Turn it around and ask - what if it was you? What if it was your house, kids, and family? How would YOU feel?

I would still support it and hopefully would have prepared for it from the months of warning the writers gave. Even still I would definitely blame the studios more for just letting this happen, mainly because they don't have one single reason not to give into this one demand.

And then consider how you would feel if your union was TELLING you how to feel, or telling others how you feel.

The vote was at 90% and the WGA really don't appeared to be one of those horrible unions that forces people to comply, but that's just my outside opinion

I don't think anyone's against writers trying to make money - but against the concept of "strike".

I'm curious - what other negotiating tools are available? There's "talking" and "striking". Surely there's more. Were they explored?

There's compromising, striking or firing. Really there's not much else the writers could do. This issue is really important for the writer's livelihood and the studios will not budge. They don't have choice.

 

[Bass]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

There's compromising, striking or firing. Really there's not much else the writers could do. This issue is really important for the writer's livelihood and the studios will not budge. They don't have choice.

That seems to me as an inherent flaw in the system.

If there are so few alternatives, no wonder this kind of thing happens. I'm sure there are alternatives.

No, but that seems to be the argument for it when the argument against it is that it is hurting many many other people.

Racist.

 

[ourchair]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this already, but did anybody hear about the Pencils Down thingie?

It's kinda ludicrous.

 

[Hibiki]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this already, but did anybody hear about the Pencils Down thingie?

It's kinda ludicrous.

what does that mean?

 

[ourchair]

Re: The strike is on. The S is O!!

what does that mean?

Basically people who want to support the strike try to earn it some publicity by buying a box of pencils for one dollar, and the pencils get send to studio moguls.

It's basically a variation of the whole peanuts publicity schtick that they did to save Jericho.

It's ridiculous because the strike doesn't 'need' publicity. The studio moguls aren't likely to 'forget' that there's a strike, and therefore reminding them with a box of pencils is pointless.

The strike doesn't NEED publicity, it needs the two sides to come to an agreement. All it's doing is making pencil companies more money.