Ultimates 2 #7 discussion (spoilers)

[Guijllons]

Didn't see that sorry! I wanna see Hawkeye totally pwned and to kill him off is NOT millar style. What about making hawkeye a blind-legolas-soldier-phyco. :roll: Dreaming ... or am I ? :shifty:

It was a fair few months back when it was first hinted that something worse than death would happen to Hawkeye.

But I can see that, and I think it's resolvable too. I really really hope they don't kill him off though (and then bring him back :|).

The three gunshots though, that's a cliffhanger ending. Cliffhangers are nearly always followed by the hero getting out alive. I believe that if Millar intended to kill Hawkeye then the final frame would have been his corpse.

 

[Bass]

Actually, I was imagining the first page of #8, the recap page, the little panel we always have, to be the crime scene, with Hawkeye's corpse on the floor with a chalk line around it.

 

[Guijllons]

But the ending is left open, and that does feel rather un-millar-esque.
Leaving us thinking about whether he is dead and then opening up with an "oh, so he is dead then" page seems pretty anticlimactic. If Millar had intended to kill him outright, then I think we'd be left with thinking about what the ultimates will do when they find out and mourning poor old Hawkeye not thinking whether he'll survive or not, which frankly is a lesser ending.

 

[Blacksword]

Just a few comments:

1) Killing Clint makes sense if you are a group moving against Fury. Clint and Fury are old buddies from the early days of SHEILD, so brutally murdering Clint and his family while under full SHEILD surviellance is a direct message for Fury.

2) I'm with those who feel that this can't be Cap. It's too obvious.... gotta be a misdirect... though knowing Millar he could be making it obvious to make us think its not Cap... but lets stay a way from circular reasoning

3) My bet is with Betty. That scene with Bruce back int eh Trail of Hulk issue was pullingme away from that conclusion, but she's one of the few characters in the book other than Jan who could have a personal chat with Hank (they know eachother from back in college through Jan), and would fit with the "Oh, Hank" line last issue. She's already shown herself to be rather cold save in that one moment. Then there's the fact that she is General Ross's daughter, brought up in US military culture... and that could result in that acidic "soldier" comment on the last page of this issue. If my dad were Ross I'd hate the military. And she's someone who you'd never expect.

Oh one more thing... for those of us who have little Avengers knowledge, why would it be ironic for Scarlet Witch to save Hawkeye?

 

[E]

Oh one more thing... for those of us who have little Avengers knowledge, why would it be ironic for Scarlet Witch to save Hawkeye?

It was pretty much her fault he died in Avengers Disassembled (Avengers #503 I believe).

 

[Guijllons]

Just a few comments:

1) Killing Clint makes sense if you are a group moving against Fury. Clint and Fury are old buddies from the early days of SHEILD, so brutally murdering Clint and his family while under full SHEILD surviellance is a direct message for Fury.

Sure, a "nothing will stand in our way" tactic. But frankly, the relationship with Clint and his family has been developed far more than any other character, Millar created an empathy for Clint and his family, we know how much they mean to him. So the loss of his family is a greater blow to Clint than losing his own life. And therefore to us.

And it is a direct message to Fury, an introduction to make sure they are now heard. But something doesn't fit in with Hank here. I know it's around this point, but I don't know what it is.

2) I'm with those who feel that this can't be Cap. It's too obvious.... gotta be a misdirect... though knowing Millar he could be making it obvious to make us think its not Cap... but lets stay a way from circular reasoning

It could be Cap, and this isn't circular. If the attack was a setup (which is quite possible, maybe something Hank related) then Cap would still be playing a big part on the side of what's right. He has been feeling as though he hasn't played a major part, I feel he hasn't played a major part. And he wants and needs to play a major part. Maybe he twigged onto something and found his niche, what he can do to really make a difference in this situation that appears to be getting increasingly out of control.

3) My bet is with Betty. That scene with Bruce back int eh Trail of Hulk issue was pullingme away from that conclusion, but she's one of the few characters in the book other than Jan who could have a personal chat with Hank (they know eachother from back in college through Jan), and would fit with the "Oh, Hank" line last issue. She's already shown herself to be rather cold save in that one moment. Then there's the fact that she is General Ross's daughter, brought up in US military culture... and that could result in that acidic "soldier" comment on the last page of this issue. If my dad were Ross I'd hate the military. And she's someone who you'd never expect.

Loki stated that the wolf was a supersoldier. This kinda rules out Betty. Also, Betty doesn't like Hank. He wouldn't be anyone she would turn to for aid. But, a manipulator she is. So who can say for certain. Though I feel that the character talking to Hank at the end of one issue with the gloved hand was honestly seeking something from Hank. Something not as convoluted as we may suspect.

But honestly, all my reasonings here feel like an easy way out.

 

[Blacksword]

Ah I'd for gotten about Loki stating that it would be one of the super soldiers... good point.

No one quite fits... were it not for the joyful killing of Clint's wife and kids I'd say Cap... but then I can't see him and Hank having a friendly chat. Natash fits, but then that's why she doesn't work...

This is why I'm not gonna speculate any further and simply enjoy the fact that a comic surprised me for once and likely will again when the traitor is revealed.

 

[marvelman]

I was thinking about something. There are things worse then dying. What if the traitor shoots out Hawkeyes eys? Or maybe shoots of a finger? That would make Hawkeye totally hadicap/ruin his life. And killing all the things hawkeye loves. Perfect for the traitor !

yeah, that'd be great. I didn't think that the gun was pointed directly at his head anyway... weird, huh?

 

[elfreo]

what if hawkeye survives the attack and then drops his code name of hawkeye, and then becomes ultimate punisher! nah that would be too cheesy. just a thought. also i think the traitor is either betty or janet.
although im leaning more towards janet because since issue 5 her and hank have been closer than usual. considering hes her ex and he used to beat her. also just a thought.


p.s. whoever the traitor is, i guarantee when the rest of the team gets their hands on him/her, their gonna suffer a whole lot. i mean killing a helpless child, :cry: that would make me want to kill them real bad. :furious:

 

[Guijllons]

This is the thing with the Ultimates, I never guess right what's gonna happen. I don't think any of us really do, at least, not precisely. A lesser writer could come up with a one issue story like any of Millar's, and then just follow it with any old "Wanda went mad" or "It was Xorn" crap and leave us feeling like cheap whore with our knickers round our ankles and a trip to the A&E. At least when Millar ****s us, he ****s us with respect.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

The main reason I can't see Hawkeye reasonably living is that he now knows who the traitor is and issue #8 is supposed to be partially about Fury doing some detective work and finding out who the traitor is. The only way I could see him living was if he is in a coma for most of the issue. This would piss me off though because coma's are over use in dramatic situations.

I did think it would be cool if they did something where clint saves himself, then doesn't tell Fury who the traitor is. There by implying that he has some other connection to the traitor other than through the Ultimates that he doesn't want Fury to know about.

The whole idea of the traitor torturing hawkeye by blinding him or shooting him in the hands seems stupid to me. What more torture can a man go through than seeing his family killed?

 

[SeAcoW]

what if hawkeye survives the attack and then drops his code name of hawkeye, and then becomes ultimate punisher!

:arrgh: DUDE !

 

[MaxwellSmart]

But anyway, this is the think with the Ultimates, I never guess right what's gonna happen. I don't think any of us really do, at least, not precisely. A lesser writer could come up with a one issue story like any of Millar's, and then just follow it with any old "Wanda went mad" or "It was Xorn" crap and leave us feeling like cheap whore with our knickers round our ankles and a trip to the A&E. At least when Millar ****s us, he ****s us with respect.

Wow, that's pretty severe. Am I the only person who's never felt sexual violated by comic book writer?

P.S. What's "the A&E?" The only A&E I know of is a cable tv network.

 

[Guijllons]

Accident and Emergency.

And no, even you've been sexually violated by a comic book writer, they were just obviously too shifty for you to notice. Some day soon you'll have flashbacks and a guilty feeling will creep upon you and from then on you'll never be able to look a Bendis's baldy head without seeing it for what it represents to the rest of us.

Sorry, but it is true.

 

[Hussefell]

Hi everyone, been reading the boards for a while and just recently signed up to post. Love the stuff you guys post.

In the same vain of "what if Hawkeye's family is not really human". What if the traitor is not really a traitor at all but someone that can resist Loki's influence. Many of you have stated that Capt America or for that matter no other Ultimate (other than Natasha) take such glee in killing an innocent family, and I agree whole heartedly. I think that the last page might have been the traitor putting more bullets into Hawkeye's "fake" son. So if the traitor is not really a traitor but the only one that is seeing reality for what really is, this means that Loki has tricked Thor and subsequently the others into hunting down the traitor. I am 100% sure someone else has posted a theory similar but don't recall their name, so credit to them first.

This theory explains why the comments by the traitor "I have become dissillusioned with America"

Explains why he killed Hawkeye's family, but does not explain why Hawkeye had a family there in the first place. Maybe make it harder for him to see reality for what it really is?

Does not quite explain why the traitor would rat out Banner. The only one I can think of is to remove Banner/Hulk from a populated area (NYC), because Loki might have released Banner into the population again.

The traitor could not control having Thor taken down because he did not have the power, and maybe it had been for the better because Thor had been already been tricked multiple times by Loki.

Recruiting Pym would have been for more power and Pym is the one person other than Betty that has been most negatively effected (and portrayed) throughout the series, giving him a better sense of reality than most. He also has the Ultron and Vision 2 robot which gives the traitor a distinct power increment.

The theory puts together somethings like Hawkeyes family but leaves other hanging out in the wind, Thor mostly. If this theory hold water then my pick would be Capt America, Black Widow, or Nick Fury because all three have been trained and potentially have the willpower/training to resist.

I have felt that all of Ultimates 2 has had a glossy film over it, distorting and misdirecting the reader about who the characters really are and what is going on and this theory would be the "ultimate" (pun intended) distortion of what I have felt has been going on. I give this theory a 25% chance because of glossy film I have felt and it explains the most brutal act of the traitor, killing Hawkeys family.

If the traitor is really a traitor and what Loki has been saying is the truth (Loki telling the truth is an oxymoron like jumbo shrimp) about a wolf in the fold, then I still feel it is either Capt America or Nick Fury. Capt America would have the most motive especially by previous comments, and Fury defitnetly has the resources and tech to do whatever he wants.

 

[ultimatedjf]

Welcome Hussefell!

 

[Ultxon]

Looking at the vote tally, I have one question.

How easily pleased are the members of Ultimate Central?

 

[E]

In the same vain of "what if Hawkeye's family is not really human". What if the traitor is not really a traitor at all but someone that can resist Loki's influence. Many of you have stated that Capt America or for that matter no other Ultimate (other than Natasha) take such glee in killing an innocent family, and I agree whole heartedly. I think that the last page might have been the traitor putting more bullets into Hawkeye's "fake" son. So if the traitor is not really a traitor but the only one that is seeing reality for what really is, this means that Loki has tricked Thor and subsequently the others into hunting down the traitor. I am 100% sure someone else has posted a theory similar but don't recall their name, so credit to them first.

Welcome - I really like that theory..

 

[SeAcoW]

Okay, I just saw the last pic of the book and saw the yellow background. As far as my eyes tells me there is NOTHING yellow in that kitchen, although there is freakin' yellow in on the walls around the door. It might be Widow that would go get Scarlets bag.

 

[Ultxon]

I like the aweseom theories going around. This is what Millar talked about why he hates people waiting for the trades. They miss the great speculation.
Too bad I'm still trying to figure out why hawkeye and Widow killed all those people in # 8. J/k.