Xbox 360

[J. Agamemnon]

You can live in your dream world where there's no discrimination, but we did some tests. Reporting someone for having "straight" "lover boy" "in love with my wife", will NOT result in the person being banned. I and friends and family tried it and got a cursory "We found nothing in the user's gamertag or profile that either violates Terms of Service or the EULA of XBox Live. Thank you.".

We've contacted several newspapers, and Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin, this is nothing to do with stopping harassment, this is patent discrimination. Secondly, and most importantly, Bass is right. When I've been playing Halo 3, or CoD4 with friends, and the abuse we female players got from the other players (being called slut, whore, being told to suck dicks) was unreal. When we reported it, we got blew off by XBL support. Being told that "friendly banter is to be expected in a competitive setting".

You can believe that the rules are fail and evenly enforced, but from experience I'm calling bull****.

you should just tell them to suck a dick and see how much they like it.

 

[Jaggyd]

you should just tell them to suck a dick and see how much they like it.

Eh, I dunno why I'm arguing it, I dumped my 360 last night. So, yeah, I'm done with the argument. Sorry for being a *****, I'll learn to keep my mouth shut better.

 

[moonmaster]

I believe a big part of Planet-man's argument was that he hadn't yet seen proof that the policy was being used in a discriminatory manner. Now that you've provided that, even he has to admit that this is a ****ed up situation.

Good job on actually going out and testing this, skotti.

 

[Planet-man]

You can live in your dream world where there's no discrimination, but we did some tests. Reporting someone for having "straight" "lover boy" "in love with my wife", will NOT result in the person being banned. I and friends and family tried it and got a cursory "We found nothing in the user's gamertag or profile that either violates Terms of Service or the EULA of XBox Live. Thank you."

We've contacted several newspapers, and Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin, this is nothing to do with stopping harassment, this is patent discrimination.

As moonmaster said, since you now actually have solid evidence to support your claims against Microsoft and aren't just assuming they're part of a homophobic conspiracy, I freely admit that what they're doing is completely biased and innapropriate and will support you in this cause.

Secondly, and most importantly, Bass is right. When I've been playing Halo 3, or CoD4 with friends, and the abuse we female players got from the other players (being called slut, whore, being told to suck dicks) was unreal. When we reported it, we got blew off by XBL support. Being told that "friendly banter is to be expected in a competitive setting".

First of all, if you think you're also being discriminated against because of your gender, I can say that from my own experience I can say that I don't think being called "slut", "whore", or "being told to suck dicks" has much to do with being female because I hear it happening to male players, myself included, all the time, because that is the way a lot of *******s talk during war games.

Now, if your problem is that they're allowed to say vulgar things during matches over the mic, I should remind you that Microsoft has blatantly and officially said that you're also allowed to say that you're a lesbian over the mic, because they've decided that during the matches themselves it's a much more loosely-regulated environment.

What Bass said is

nonchalantly and naturally stating it[your sexual orientation] is ban-worthy, but insulting people with obscene levels of vulgarity is permitted.

Which isn't true.

During gameplay, trash-talking is permitted, and openly discussing your sexual orientation is too.

In profiles, writing out that you're "going to make all the slut-whores suck your dick" is NOT permitted, and neither is stating your sexuality(although now it appears they don't enforce this against straights, despite saying they would).

At no time does Microsoft allow you to do one and not the other. In some parts of the game both are allowed, in other parts, none are allowed. Bass is wrong.

And in all seriousness, if you can prove that people ARE being allowed to have vulgar comments written out in their profile, which I don't think I've seen, do so and I'll back you on this one too.

 

[Bass]

Look. They have a filter. The filter disallows all names with words that are likely to be used offensively. Unfortunately, words like "gay" have to fall under this category because, if unfiltered, they would soon appear thousands of times in names like "UrTehGay" "killgaywads" and so on and the end result would be FAR MORE offensive and alienating to gay gamers(and all sane ones).

In this context, gamertags, they have to treat "gay" as a swear word, because 99 times out of a hundred here it would be used as one.

So yes, people like Richard Gaywood gets the short end of the straw, just like Argelico ****s would if he tried to register almost anywhere, possibly even this site.

But if they didn't, the end result would be far, far more disgusting to far more people.

Nonsense. This is Microsoft. When a man states his name is "Gaywood" they can easily allow the exception. If they need proof of his identity, and he provides it, the exception should be allowed. It is not beyond the abilities of Microsoft to allow people to use their real names in Xbox Live. Especially not because of their swear filter.

At this site, it's not possible... oh, but we did it.

Dick.

We had/have a poster called Dick Grayson. Dick was a swear filter. E removed it. Dick isn't as bad as **** or ****, but he removed it. And it's not like he's a key programmer of the site who can write an exception into the code.

Microsoft can easily allow Mr Gaywood to have his real name by writing an exception into the swear filter. Because the company invented computers. The binary situation which you espouse has no reason to exist.

What Bass said is

Which isn't true.

During gameplay, trash-talking is permitted, and openly discussing your sexual orientation is too.

I didn't specify that they allowed crass vulgarity in profiles. I said that they allowed it. Doesn't matter where. The sheer amount of vulgarity you hear on Xbox Live is nigh-legendary and completely unregulated. You may think it's not something that can be regulated, but it easily could be. It shouldn't be, but it could be.

My point is, on the mic, there is no way Microsoft is going to penalise you for saying "**** you *****, I'll rape your ****ing corpse" but "I'm lesbian" in the profile is too much?

It's a nonsense policy that shouldn't exist. Yes, you point out how wonderful Microsoft are at being fair (within their policy) and responsive, but the policy they uphold is a big fat turd.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

I don't like the justification of, "well look, it's not just you we're doing this to. Mr. gaywood can't have that on his account name even though that is his real name and we have proof because he uses his credit card to pay monthly and we have to verify that sort of thing." It IS a stupid rule.

Then again, if I'm playing a video game online, why should I be concerned if you're doing a guy, a girl or both? Why should I care if you're black? Why should I care if you're foot is missing or your eye was knifed out in Iraq(true story)? I think I'd be more concerned that you're lag killing or being a cheap *** camper. Then again, that's just me. The rest are not so fortunate I suppose.

I had more to say, but I got to rack these chumps up.

EDIT: Great! now i forgot IT!

 

[Bass]

I don't like the justification of, "well look, it's not just you we're doing this to. Mr. gaywood can't have that on his account name even though that is his real name and we have proof because he uses his credit card to pay monthly and we have to verify that sort of thing." It IS a stupid rule.

That's a damn good point. If Mr Gaywood's name is good enough for Microsoft to take his money, the least they could do is let him use it.

 

[Planet-man]

Nonsense. This is Microsoft. When a man states his name is "Gaywood" they can easily allow the exception. If they need proof of his identity, and he provides it, the exception should be allowed.

And how do you know this isn't the case?

It is not beyond the abilities of Microsoft to allow people to use their real names in Xbox Live. Especially not because of their swear filter.

I didn't say the swear filter made it impossible, I said it's what happened. As far as we know, all that happened was that a guy tried to register as Dick Gaywood, the swear filter said he couldn't, he went to the newspapers about it.

At this site, it's not possible... oh, but we did it.

Dick.

We had/have a poster called Dick Grayson. Dick was a swear filter. E removed it. Dick isn't as bad as **** or ****, but he removed it. And it's not like he's a key programmer of the site who can write an exception into the code.

Microsoft can easily allow Mr Gaywood to have his real name by writing an exception into the swear filter.

Yes, they sure could. If he went to them and did all that. Which as far as I know we have no reason to think he did.

And furthermore, even if he did send them proof of I.D., and they said "Okay sir, go right on ahead", and he'd been allowed in just fine with "DickGaywood" as his gamertag.... do you think we wouldn't still have the exact same people making the exact same complaints and writing news stories saying "A Man ACTUALLY HAD TO PROVE HIS I.D. Because His Name Had "Gay" In It!!!!"?

I didn't specify that they allowed crass vulgarity in profiles. I said that they allowed it. Doesn't matter where.

What you said is

nonchalantly and naturally stating it[your sexual orientation] is ban-worthy, but insulting people with obscene levels of vulgarity is permitted.

The "but" implies that one is somehow happening in spite of the other, which is not true. You're describing like a situation that isn't happening. Of COURSE it matters where. If you could call someone an "*******" but not say "I'm gay" in the same place, that would be appalling. That's not the case.

The sheer amount of vulgarity you hear on Xbox Live is nigh-legendary and completely unregulated. You may think it's not something that can be regulated, but it easily could be. It shouldn't be, but it could be.

When did I say I didn't think in-match mic stuff couldn't be regulated?

My point is, on the mic, there is no way Microsoft is going to penalise you for saying "**** you *****, I'll rape your ****ing corpse" but "I'm lesbian" in the profile is too much?

The way I'll put it is this: On the mic, it's like people are allowed to be, let's call it, "Level 7" offensive. Everything from discussion of sexual orientation to cussing and trash-talk to borderline death-threats are allowed.

Out of the game, such as in profiles, people are only allowed to be, let's call it, "Level 1" offensive. Stating your sexual orientation isn't even allowed, let alone cussing and trash-talk and death threats.

They're two completely different parts of the system and unsurprisingly have different rules. Yes, the extent to which the rules change between the two is big. But since it IS still fair to all parties, and does not at any time paint sexual orientation as being more offensive or wrong than insults and the like, I do not understand what you have a problem with other the simple strictness of it.

Edit:

That's a damn good point. If Mr Gaywood's name is good enough for Microsoft to take his money, the least they could do is let him use it.

Again, this is true, but for all we know he paid for LIVE subscriptions by buying gamercards at Blockbuster like tons of people do.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Again, this is true, but for all we know he paid for LIVE subscriptions by buying gamercards at Blockbuster like tons of people do.

BUT! you'd still have to assume that there are subscribers out there who have auto-withdrawal accounts or just pay manually with CC every month and have to used their otherwise offensive names to pay the monthly/reactivation fee. and according to MS, there are subscribers with "offensive names" whose names are blocked or asked to create new ones. out of the millions of subscribers, there has to be at least one.

 

[Bass]

I didn't say the swear filter made it impossible, I said it's what happened. As far as we know, all that happened was that a guy tried to register as Dick Gaywood, the swear filter said he couldn't, he went to the newspapers about it.

As I recall, he tried to get Microsoft to reinstate his name and they wouldn't.

And furthermore, even if he did send them proof of I.D., and they said "Okay sir, go right on ahead", and he'd been allowed in just fine with "DickGaywood" as his gamertag.... do you think we wouldn't still have the exact same people making the exact same complaints and writing news stories saying "A Man ACTUALLY HAD TO PROVE HIS I.D. Because His Name Had "Gay" In It!!!!"?

Yeah, but they'd be overreacting.

The "but" implies that one is somehow happening in spite of the other, which is not true. You're describing like a situation that isn't happening. Of COURSE it matters where. If you could call someone an "*******" but not say "I'm gay" in the same place, that would be appalling. That's not the case.

No, it doesn't matter where. Xbox Live is one big institutionalized virtual society. Allowing offensive comments to appear in one area, but non-offensive comments to not appear in another area is just over-thought, bureaucratic nonsense.

When did I say I didn't think in-match mic stuff couldn't be regulated?

My assumption. Oops.

They're two completely different parts of the system and unsurprisingly have different rules. Yes, the extent to which the rules change between the two is big. But since it IS still fair to all parties, and does not at any time paint sexual orientation as being more offensive or wrong than insults and the like, I do not understand what you have a problem with other the simple strictness of it.

The problem is labelling something 'offensive' when it clearly isn't.

Being gay isn't 'offensive' just because Microsoft termed it so. You seem to not understand that concept. Again: Microsoft may be fair and consistent in implementing their policies - but their policies are bull.

 

[Planet-man]

As I recall, he tried to get Microsoft to reinstate his name and they wouldn't.

Looking back now, it seems he did, but did not provide them with any actual proof that it was really his name. He did, however, provide the article with his driver's license.

Yeah, but they'd be overreacting.

To you. To me, selling your Xbox - not just not playing online, but SELLING THE WHOLE SYSTEM -because you're not allowed to put "I'm straight" or "I'm gay" in a tiny box in your profile that few will actually read and doesn't effect the gaming - the reason you bought the system - in the first place is overreacting too.

No, it doesn't matter where. Xbox Live is one big institutionalized virtual society. Allowing offensive comments to appear in one area, but non-offensive comments to not appear in another area is just over-thought, bureaucratic nonsense.

Bass, you've said yourself you don't even use it, didn't you? Try think of it like a sporting match. There's certain conduct that's allowed on the field that is banned from the benches. That's just the way sports work. That's just the way LIFE works.

The problem is labelling something 'offensive' when it clearly isn't.

Being gay isn't 'offensive' just because Microsoft termed it so.

You seem to not understand that concept. Again: Microsoft may be fair and consistent in implementing their policies - but their policies are bull.

So like I said, you just think they're way too strict. I think so too. But I don't really care because it's(supposedly) fair to both sides and doesn't effect the gaming in any way, and I can at least see where they're coming from in terms of going zero-tolerance to make sure they don't have tons of other sex-related stuff written about in the profiles.

Like I said earlier, they could just make a box for sexual orientation or something and be done with it.

In other news, in contrast to what happened to skotti, Richard Gaywood himself said that he tried registering the name "Heterowood" and was banned for that as well.

 

[thee great one]

This is madness.

 

[moonmaster]

I've begun to think that Planet-man is an incredibly complex, artificially intelligent argument computer that's designed to counter every statement people make, no matter how pointless the argument becomes.

Just watch, he's going to respond to this post, breaking down each part of the sentence with an elaborate response.

 

[Planet-man]

I've begun to think that Planet-man is an incredibly

Yes.

complex,

Yes.

artificially

No.

intelligent

Yes.

argument

Kind of.

computer

Kind of.

that's designed to counter every statement people make, no matter how pointless the argument becomes.

"Becomes".

Just watch, he's going to respond to this post, breaking down each part of the sentence with an elaborate response.

I can't. The MUZIKS download just finished.

 

[moonmaster]

My initial idea for that last post was that I was going to take your last post and break down each individual word and respond angrily to each.

And you got the MUZIKS!

 

[Bass]

Bass, you've said yourself you don't even use it, didn't you? Try think of it like a sporting match. There's certain conduct that's allowed on the field that is banned from the benches. That's just the way sports work. That's just the way LIFE works.

I play sports. The big problem with sporting events is usually the inability to deal with problem behaviour - doesn't matter where that behaviour is as it usually spreads.

So like I said, you just think they're way too strict. I think so too. But I don't really care because it's(supposedly) fair to both sides and doesn't effect the gaming in any way, and I can at least see where they're coming from in terms of going zero-tolerance to make sure they don't have tons of other sex-related stuff written about in the profiles.

Like I said earlier, they could just make a box for sexual orientation or something and be done with it.

That's a fair solution.

However, what exists isn't "fair" as it needlessly discriminates against an entire group of people.

It's needless because your solution is totally adequate.

I've begun to think that Planet-man is an incredibly complex, artificially intelligent argument computer that's designed to counter every statement people make, no matter how pointless the argument becomes.

Just watch, he's going to respond to this post, breaking down each part of the sentence with an elaborate response.

I find your ideas intriguing to me and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[Gothamite]

I've begun to think that Planet-man is an incredibly complex, artificially intelligent argument computer that's designed to counter every statement people make, no matter how pointless the argument becomes.

Just watch, he's going to respond to this post, breaking down each part of the sentence with an elaborate response.

:lol:

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I... I... Seriously P-M? You are advocating this?

This couldn't just be a "That totally sucks, and I could understand why somebody would get angry about this." You had to dig deep inside of your mind to come up with valid reasons for policies that are blatantly discriminatory. I mean, that sort of thing doesn't come easy. You actually had to find a way to agree with the discrimination, and rather than post it as opinion, you post it as fact and spend two days arguing for the continuation of those policies.

Seriously???

 

[Ice]

I think I lost a game in here but I can't find it...

 

[Planet-man]

I... I... Seriously P-M? You are advocating this?

This couldn't just be a "That totally sucks, and I could understand why somebody would get angry about this." You had to dig deep inside of your mind to come up with valid reasons for policies that are blatantly discriminatory. I mean, that sort of thing doesn't come easy. You actually had to find a way to agree with the discrimination, and rather than post it as opinion, you post it as fact and spend two days arguing for the continuation of those policies.

Seriously???

Not exactly, what happened was that I disagreed with people immeadiately saying "it's discriminating against all gay people!!!!" when there was no evidence of that at all. Once skotti found the actual proof I immeadiately said that it was ridiculous and I'd back her in that.

As for the policy itself, I've said about five times that I think it's stupid and they should fix it, but I can at least see their reasons for it and where it came from, which I always want to do in these sorts of things. I'm not arguing for the continuation of the policies, I'm arguing against this all being black and white. I never once agreed with the discrimination because in most areas of this issue, all people are being treated the same. When Skotti found proof otherwise, I backed her on that.

I'm not sure where I stated opinion as fact, at least any more so than you saying I had to dig deep inside and these things don't come easy and such. Most of the points I've made, for both sides, seemed obvious to me.

All I'm trying to do is not jump immeadiately to one side because I can see both sides of the issue.