Bass
Nexus of the World
I've read just enough to have enough knowledge for examples as to why this series is total, and utter, pap.
Seldes Katne
Site mom
I read the title all the way up through the Lady Liberators arc, and then dropped it. The art was nicely done, but the plot was usually the same, and rather simplistic -- guest character(s) of the month is/are brought in, and massive property damage ensues; then everyone either walks or otherwise gets away. If this were fanfiction, the Red Hulk would be the ultimate Mary Sue character.
I did read issue "600" because I wanted to get some idea of the set-up for Greg Pak's upcoming work. (Could someone explain when 600 became the next number after 12? Because last I saw in the Marvel catalogue, the Hulk series was up to issue 12. Then came 600. Are these guys just being superstitious, or what?)
My theory at the moment is that if I pick up and read every 6th issue of Loeb's book, there will be some kind of plot movement toward resolving the questions set up in the first two issues. Everything in the intervening five issues will be fight-scene filler material, which I can safely skip.
It looks as though Loeb has essentially taken Hulk out of Marvel continuity anyway, especially with Issue "600".
I did read issue "600" because I wanted to get some idea of the set-up for Greg Pak's upcoming work. (Could someone explain when 600 became the next number after 12? Because last I saw in the Marvel catalogue, the Hulk series was up to issue 12. Then came 600. Are these guys just being superstitious, or what?)
My theory at the moment is that if I pick up and read every 6th issue of Loeb's book, there will be some kind of plot movement toward resolving the questions set up in the first two issues. Everything in the intervening five issues will be fight-scene filler material, which I can safely skip.
It looks as though Loeb has essentially taken Hulk out of Marvel continuity anyway, especially with Issue "600".
thee great one
Master of TOG-fu.
Yay, I'm not alone anymore.
Grocer Man
Well-Known Member
I personally think that Mary Sue is a phenomenon that can exist outside of fanfiction. It's just that it's a concept that's very, very easy to flub up in execution. But let's stay on topic.
The 600 thing is basically an excuse to create as many milestone issues as possible for their 70th anniversary.
And sadly, it's in continuity.
Bass
Nexus of the World
YES.
(I have to put something else in this post otherwise it makes my post not capitals. What an annoying function. Blech.)
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Ultimate Houde
UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
I have no idea what you mean by Mary sue
Grocer Man
Well-Known Member
Ultimate Houde
UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
Ah okay, thanks.
You would find it more annoying when Myspace twerps come on and type entire posts in all caps.
Seldes Katne
Site mom
No, you're not. I find a number of things I've read seem to show up on your trade or pull list. And I've done editing for a lot of fanfic authors over the years, so my tolerance for, what's the word -- "meh"? -- storytelling is rather high. Between the price increase and the continually directionless plot on this title, however, I think enough is enough.
I agree. One of most noticeably Mary Sue-ish characters in original fiction is Ayla, from Jean M. Auel's Earth's Children series. In Shelters of Stone, Ayla had all the insights, came up with all the good ideas, and could turn the most insulting and difficult situations into golden opportunities. AKA a "Mary Sue".
Similarly, the Red Hulk can beat up literally anyone, suffers only the most minor of temporary set-backs, and acquires all kinds of abilities just because the author thinks it's cool or convenient. Hence, a "Mary Sue". (Or "Gary Stu", if we're being gender-correct here.)
I suppose comic book writing could be seen as a form of fanfiction with a paycheck attached.
Anyway....
Is it in continuity because Joe Quesada said so, or because the Red Hulk has shown up in other books, or what? I'm just curious; outside of Marvel Zombies 4 and Pet Avengers, I haven't been keeping up with mainstream Marvel lately. Has the Red Hulk appeared anywhere outside of Loeb's book?
At the moment, I find the Red Hulk much easier to write off as out of continuity than, say, Bruce Jones' Hulk arcs. Issue 600 essentially pressed a giant "Reset" button -- Bruce Banner is back in custody, depowered, just like at the end of World War Hulk. Leonard Samson is showing up in other titles in the MU (he was recently tossed out of an airplane in Thunderbolts, as I recall), and I'm not sure what the story is with Jen Walters, now that She-Hulk has been cancelled, but I've seen her pop up in Marvel Divas, at least, so she's still around. No one else seems to be paying much attention to the events in Hulk.
If Pak's story doesn't reference the Red Hulk, a new reader should be able to finish World War Hulk and pick right up with Incredible Hulk 601 and not notice anything missing.
Iceshadow
Well-Known Member
She also had a guest role in the recent Savage She-Hulk mini that just wrapped up (which I thought was pretty good) where she was working for A.R.M.O.R.
Grocer Man
Well-Known Member
I personally think that a Mary Sue can be written well. If you have a story revolve around a character, just make the story and character well worth reading. Like for instance, Nanoha from Magical Lyrical Nanoha.
And Red Hulk had a cameo in Mighty Avengers. They were fighting the Fantastic Four for some reason and Hercules, on an undercover mission and not wanting to blow his cover, used an image inducer to appear as Red Hulk.
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ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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We should make a thread about Mary Sues in comics. Red Hulk and Superboy Prime would be in there.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
I plan on downloading and reading this whole series, simply because I'm a masochist, and out of a job. and bored.
I think if you're writing a Mary Sue, then by definition, the character isn't being written well. It means you don't have the distance necessary to write a good story. Writing without knowledge of your character's flaws is about the worst kind of writing you can do.
While Superboy Prime isn't my favorite character, I don't think he's really a Mary Sue. If anything, he's a writer-conscious Mary Sue. Yeah, I know that's an oxymoron. What I mean is, Geoff Johns wrote he character as a commentary of the metafictional problems of writing characters in a pre-existing universe. That's not to say he did a particularly fine job of it, but I don't think it makes the character a Mary Sue either. If anything, Johns is too aware of the character's flaws. I think it's one of the few places where the metafictionality of the DC Universe actually gets in the way of the story.
It's maybe an instance of Johns fitting a square peg in a round hole, but I don't think that makes it a Mary Sue situation.
Edit: Actually, you know what? On second thought, I think you may be right.
I think if you're writing a Mary Sue, then by definition, the character isn't being written well. It means you don't have the distance necessary to write a good story. Writing without knowledge of your character's flaws is about the worst kind of writing you can do.
While Superboy Prime isn't my favorite character, I don't think he's really a Mary Sue. If anything, he's a writer-conscious Mary Sue. Yeah, I know that's an oxymoron. What I mean is, Geoff Johns wrote he character as a commentary of the metafictional problems of writing characters in a pre-existing universe. That's not to say he did a particularly fine job of it, but I don't think it makes the character a Mary Sue either. If anything, Johns is too aware of the character's flaws. I think it's one of the few places where the metafictionality of the DC Universe actually gets in the way of the story.
It's maybe an instance of Johns fitting a square peg in a round hole, but I don't think that makes it a Mary Sue situation.
Edit: Actually, you know what? On second thought, I think you may be right.
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ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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Venom Melendez still hasn't voted...
Void.M
Well-Known Member
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Savage She-Hulk is the one working for ARMOR, not Jen. Lyra will also show up in Pak's new book. Also, Marvel Divas is before Hulk #600 and Jen isn't part of the regular cast anyway(it was only a cameo).
Edit:
@ProjectX2: Yes i did.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
LIES.
YES.
NONSENSE.
Anyhow - I read #600.
For a comic called "HULK", the Hulk is bizarrely absent for his 600th anniversary, taking a back seat to She-Hulk, Spider-Man, and... Ben Urich.
That's right, a SUPPORTING CHARACTER from DAREDEVIL is a larger part of this issue than the EPONYMOUS HERO.
I really feel stupider for having read it. The issue goes on and on about who the Red Hulk is, and then Loeb not only doesn't reveal the identity but says, "It's not important. The mystery of what these guys are up to? That's more important."
"By the way they're making Captain America Hulks."
If you're going to go, "WHO IS THE RED HULK?" and then answer another mystery and say it's more important, you don't know what you're doing.
Surely, if the whole Gamma-Cap conspiracy is more important, why not MAKE THAT THE MYSTERY? To ask a question, reveal something no one asked then act like you've given away a big plot point not only doesn't pay off what you set your story up with, but undermines a potential plot point.
Ugggg.
Captain America Hulks. Because nothing makes an atomic bomb more powerful than if you stick a bayonet on it.
Mixing the two together doesn't mean a ****ing thing. Millar got it right when all that did was make him GREY.
And how the hell does this make any sense. And Rulk has apparently 'killed the Hulk'. Man, that must make the Illuminati feel stupid since apparently, Hulk was uncurable. And it must make Rulk feel stupid since he could've done this any time he wanted. I have a feeling when he was going around on the SILVER SURFER'S SURFBOARD killing TERRAX and what not, this plan to make Captain America Hulks wasn't high on his agenda.
I can't believe this pap is selling. I would LOVE to somehow get a hold of these scripts, and change the names to new characters who've never existed before, and see how well they sell. There is nothing good here. This is selling precisely because of a TV show starring Lou Ferrigno made thirty years ago.
ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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Venom Melendez! You were supposed to vote for YES! Who do I blame now?!
Grocer Man
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Mary Sue is a pretty broad term though.
Again, I have nothing.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
...
?
How eloquent, Bass....
Uh, well... He pretty much has said that's the case in interview. I'm not saying he did a good job at it. To be honest, I think his treatment of Superboy Prime was even more ham-fisted and ugly an exploration of metafiction as Morrison's finale to Animal Man and I'm one of the few people who didn't like that final ish. I thought it was pretentious and boring and said little. It was what every English major liberal arts sophomore dreams of writing before they actually learn how to write.
And Johns did an even uglier job of it. But I'm still not sure that makes the character a Mary Sue. Although, I guess the definition of that term is rather ambiguous. Johns is a fairly solid workman when it comes to generally mindless genre writing, but he's not a particularly profound writer.
Bass said:
Really, I'd like to get a look at those numbers. Somehow I doubt Hulk has sold all that consistently in the last thirty years. For that matter, I'm curious to see what its numbers are like in comparison to Planet Hulk or World War Hulk. I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm not sure you're right. I'd love to really isolate why it's selling so well, though, because it really really baffles me.
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