Do you read Loeb's Hulk?

[Bass]

Superman?

Well the thing there is that Superman started off like that, his mythology has been made to fit that. It's usually when you add a character whose super awesome "just because", that upset the natural pre-established levels, and feels lame.

Exactly, as Random says. The big point of a Mary Sue is that it's a new character who is added to an already existing cast. An original character can be a Mary Sue, but the big annoyance of a Mary Sue is not that they're perfect, but that they're taking screen time away from someone else who's more interesting than them and they're kept around because the author thinks they're awesome.

The comics haven't delivered hellacious amounts of smashery?

Sir, I disagree!

Forsooth! Examples!

I think I understand what you're saying (the Obi-Wan/Vader relationship was the focal point, and the other movies just added to or expanded upon it, or tried to rekindle the emotional impact of it), I just disagree. In the prequels, the Anakin/Padme relationship had some effect on events as well. (Granted, Lucas' love scenes tend to be rather tepid....)

Perhaps I'm the only one who went to see the movies for something other than the Obi-Wan/Vader thing, however. I love the Star Wars aliens and wildlife, and for me, those were big draws, in addition to some of the supporting cast members and the special effects. (*shrugs* I've never claimed to be normal.)

You're confusing 'heat' with structure. Yes, the Padme/Anakin relationship is a driving force of the plot and turns the story, but it generates no 'heat'. It doesn't create an emotional excitement that fuels the crowd. It's just there. The alien worlds are cool, but the heat, the passion for the prequels, stems from the tiny Obi-Wan/Vader scene in STAR WARS. That's where all the drive and excitement both in and out of the theatres comes from. Everything else just sits there. I'm not talking about the characters' emotions, but the audience's passion for the films. It's all based on STAR WARS, and EMPIRE. Nothing else in the franchise generates its own heat, with one possible exception: Emperor Palpatine. Palpatine is fantastic in the prequels, and he is so wonderful that he could be said to be generating a lot of heat by himself. That and the Darth Maul fights, I suppose.

The latter. He's too perfect. His supporting cast is 10x more interesting than he is.

Lies. I will teach you the Superman. He is this madness. He is this lightning.

 

[E]

Lies. I will teach you the Superman. He is this madness. He is this lightning.

I agree - Miracleman was a better Superman than Superman is.

 

[Bass]

Agck! I am undone by my own wordings!