How many superheroes should the DCU have?

[Joe Kalicki]

I like how DC has the metagene, which means almost every person born in the DCU has the ability to gain super-powers, they just need to be triggered somehow.

And then there are vigilante characters who don't need powers anyway.

DC's pretty much always been my universe. They fell out of favor with me for a couple years, but I've been solidly back for the last couple. And a major, major reason is how populated it is with super characters.

I also like the fictional cities, the fictional governments and organizations, the fictional president even. DC is pretty much everything I love about comics.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I like how DC has the metagene, which means almost every person born in the DCU has the ability to gain super-powers, they just need to be triggered somehow.

And then there are vigilante characters who don't need powers anyway.

DC's pretty much always been my universe. They fell out of favor with me for a couple years, but I've been solidly back for the last couple. And a major, major reason is how populated it is with super characters.

I also like the fictional cities, the fictional governments and organizations, the fictional president even. DC is pretty much everything I love about comics.

Stupid Fanboy

I love DCU for the reason they have short skirts yet no panty shots

 

[Void.M]

Stupid Fanboy

I love DCU for the reason they have short skirts yet no panty shots

You mean like Supergirl?

 

[Planet-man]

Soooo...just because YOU don't like certain characters and depictions, then they should be slashed?

Skotti.....what the hell are you talking about?:?

I posted this topic for open discussion and to find out different people opinions on the issue. It's an interesting debate.

I NEVER said anything about wanting certain characters to be slashed from mainstream DC forever. I simply stated my opinion on the issue at hand, which is that, to me, superheroes in general make for better stories when they don't make up 10% of the human population.

Aye aye cap'n, remind me I'm just a girl and not allowed to like things without your permission.

:shock:

What the....

Are you accusing me of sexism now? Where the hell does THIS come from, and when have I said anything to remotely imply that yours or anyone elses opinions here aren't important?

I even ended my post with this:

Anyway, what are your opinions here?

Get a grip, and never accuse me of anything like that again.

Uh... huh. Well then by that logic, we don't need comic books AT ALL. After all, the world has "survived long enough" with zero of them... so then why do we need any superheroes in our media?

For entertainment....duh.:roll:

And for me, the most entertaining JLA stories(or the ones I can get into the most) are the ones where the JLA is made up of just the main 15 or so superheroes(the exception being Kingdom Come, because A it's in the future so things have grown out of control, and B the fact that the superhero population has grown is a HUGE and volatile problem, as I think it would be in real life).

And for me, Superman works better when it's him, or him and a select few others, against big problems.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen "real magic" when not on drugs and/or psychotrophic medications?

:roll:

I think we both know what I mean by "real magic" here...those beautiful, subtle moments that amount to maybe 6 minutes of your entire life and can only be described as magic or revelations.

I don't like how in the DCU, real magic is just another superpower. I think that cheapens the whole idea of it. Others like it? Good for them. That's there opinion and the whole point of this thread.

So we should only have the one's you know? i mean some of the so call nameless dudes have a fan base...some people dont know The Question so i guess by your logic he should be erased.

Did Wade say anything like that?

No. He said he, like me, preferred fewer random superheroes flying about, and that's his opinion, which for the dozenth time is the entire point of this and most other threads on this site.

Jesus Christ Superstar, was it too much for me to assume that I could post an open discussion here about a very wide topic without half the posters jumping down each others throats accusing them of wanting to alienate the entire DCU for everyone?! Especially when I end the first post by specifically asking people for their opinions on the issue?!


At any rate, thank you to DSF, Zombipanda, Joe Kalicki and Moonie for being civilized enough to understand that "opinion/discussion" doesn't mean the same thing as "battle for preferrence supremacy".

 

[Jaggyd]

Skotti.....what the hell are you talking about?:?

I posted this topic for open discussion and to find out different people opinions on the issue. It's an interesting debate.

I NEVER said anything about wanting certain characters to be slashed from mainstream DC forever. I simply stated my opinion on the issue at hand, which is that, to me, superheroes in general make for better stories when they don't make up 10% of the human population.



:shock:

What the....

Are you accusing me of sexism now? Where the hell does THIS come from, and when have I said anything to remotely imply that yours or anyone elses opinions here aren't important?

I even ended my post with this:


Get a grip, and never accuse me of anything like that again.

Okay slow poke I'll catch you up. DC comics has roughly 3000 superheroes. Until E for Extinction and House of M, Marvel had...ohhh about 16 MILLION. My only comments in the beginning, until you started ranting about how "real magic" should be treated, is it's completely illogical that roughly a dozen or so American heroes could police the world. You keep using Dini/Ross' worlds as being more pristine and uncluttered. Apparently, you really didn't read Kingdom Come or Justice. Kingdom Come was more of analogy of the Image era of superheroics, and Justice is just a great old school story. Neither one is without a large number of heroes, plus Dini and Ross love the unused and nameless heroes like Zatanna, The Metal Men, Bulleteer, etc. Secondly, a LOT of old "useless" heroes have been revitalized by people like Johns, Morrison and Dini. Look at the Seven Soldiers of Victory maxi-series.

At any rate, thank you to DSF, Zombipanda, Joe Kalicki and Moonie for being civilized enough to understand that "opinion/discussion" doesn't mean the same thing as "battle for preferrence supremacy".

So, what you're saying is, if someone disagrees with you on principle alone, they're not civilized? Silly rabbit.

I started out civilized until you belittled what I said about magical characters. We all know how real magic works huh?

I originally entered a levelheaded comment about how too few heroes removes the depth and flavor of the DCU. You were the one who started with the snarky comments about how we survived without this deep number of heroes. When in actuality it was everyone's precious Silver Age that produced all of these "throw away heroes".

 

[Planet-man]

Okay slow poke I'll catch you up.

Catch me up to what? My own opinions about what I like in my stories?

Seriously, what's gotten into you? We're all just stating our personal preferences here.

And you still haven't apologized for randomly accusing me of sexism for no reason.

My only comments in the beginning, until you started ranting about how "real magic" should be treated, is it's completely illogical that roughly a dozen or so American heroes could police the world.

How is that completely illogical? It worked just fine on Justice League(pre-JLU) and in plenty of other JLA stories.

It only becomes illogical when you introduce gigantic, galaxy-exploding threats like Imperiex and Maggeddon, which I don't like the idea of either.

You keep using Dini/Ross' worlds as being more pristine and uncluttered. Apparently, you really didn't read Kingdom Come or Justice.

Kingdom Come is, quite easily, my favourite story of all-time, and Justice is the only comic on my pull-list.

Just so you know.

Kingdom Come was more of analogy of the Image era of superheroics,

I already explained why KC is an exception for me. It's in the future, and the vast number of superheroes in the world is treated as a big problem, and it's causing a lot of violence and destruction. THAT'S logical.

and Justice is just a great old school story. Neither one is without a large number of heroes, plus Dini and Ross love the unused and nameless heroes like Zatanna, The Metal Men, Bulleteer, etc.

First of all, it's not like Justice has anywhere near the number of superhumans as say, today's mainstream DCU. Second, the "extra" heroes in Justice don't play a big enough role in the story to bother me, and when they do, they're used cleverly and necessarily. They're not just there to fly around and shoot energy beams, which is more than I can say for the brunt of the background DCU supers, who are exactly who I'm referring to.

Secondly, a LOT of old "useless" heroes have been revitalized by people like Johns, Morrison and Dini. Look at the Seven Soldiers of Victory maxi-series.

Who are you quoting when you say "useless"? I hope it's not me, because I didn't say that.

And what's your point anyway? That second-stringers are occasionally revitalized? Good for them. When that happens, I'll read a story about them. Until then, *I* prefer to read stories about the main set of heroes.

I still don't see why you can't understand that this is just a matter of what each person likes in their stories, not some "argue over who should be permanently eliminated from the DCU so no one can read about them" thread.

So, what you're saying is, if someone disagrees with you on principle alone, they're not civilized? Silly rabbit.

Nope, I'm saying that if someone doesn't understand the difference between "state and discuss your opinions" and "jump down each others throats and call their opinions illogical", there's a good chance they have some things to learn about a civilized conversation.

I started out civilized until you belittled what I said about magical characters. We all know how real magic works huh?

No, your first post to me, before I'd even responded to you, accused me of sexism.

I didn't belittle anything you said about magic! It was jtg3885 who belittled me.

I originally entered a levelheaded comment about how too few heroes removes the depth and flavor of the DCU.

And then, out of nowhere, this:

Soooo...just because YOU don't like certain characters and depictions, then they should be slashed?

Followed by a random accusation of sexism.

 

[Ice]

You guys get rattled too easily. Skotti, I'm going to side with Planet Man here. You seem to have misunderstood something and got angry by it. He never said anything to insult you in any shape or form. Act like civilized people here. It's not a crime to disagree with someone, but you don't have to act inappropriate about it.

JTG, I hope you weren't trying to infer anything about Planet Man with your second question there.

So hopefully after this people can get back to the topic at hand. Things won't be pretty if they don't.

 

[Jaggyd]

Seriously, read my first comment, and his response. His little dickish comments is what pissed me off.

My original first comment was very benign, until he belittled what I'd said. Then the nice gloves came off.

 

[Ice]

Seriously, read my first comment, and his response. His little dickish comments is what pissed me off.

My original first comment was very benign, until he belittled what I'd said. Then the nice gloves came off.

I fail to see any dickish comment towards you in his first post. I also fail to see why this has to continue. Let's all just drop this.

 

[jtg3885]

JTG, I hope you weren't trying to infer anything about Planet Man with your second question there.

No, that's my generally standard response to any mention of "real" magic or vampires or demons or whatnot. Any argument attempting to use the word "real" in conjunction with any of those terms is automatically made of lose.

Planet, Marvel does the same thing with magic and I don't hear you complaining about that. Illyana Rasputin, Bellesco (sp?), Doctor Strange, etc.

 

[SSJmole]

I like having a million. But in an Ultimate-style, realistic version of the DCU, I'd think it would be less.

I like having loads too.


My thought on this debate is :

- Superman
- Batman(and the world would consider him an urban legend of a big monster, not a superhero at all)
- Wonder Woman
- One Flash(either Barry or Wally, but no switching and no sidekicks)
- Hal Jordan
- Martian Manhunter
- Aquaman
- Plastic Man
- Green Arrow(known as a high-tech vigilante without powers)
- The Question
- The Atom

I disagree strongly with this. Marvel has more heroes than that just in the X-men comics so DC would need more like Supergirl and My favourite DC character Nightwing. Plus Teen Titans ect...


I always felt like heroes should work for for the government (not all people like batman shouldn't) and have different teams that only deal with a certain threat level e.g

medium threat = teen titans
High threat = Justice league but not all the most known.
Maximum threat = Justice league made up of the top people e.g superman , wonder woman ect...

But that is just me.

The Magic issue

there should be Magic yes BUT IMO they need to distance it more. What I mean by that is allow heroes to have magic as power sure then have less characters as well who have what I would call "pure magic" which should be dealt with in a very mystical way.

DO NOT try to explain Magic as it supposed to be something pure that science would not not be able to figure out. Strong and all powerful effecting everything like The force on star wars.

The common magic that more use = more tainted magic that is not so pure and is like imitation magic

Now back to the How many superheroes should the DCU have?

A lot. BUT only big names get there own comic the lesser ones are kept for team ups or groups and only have their own comic if it is a mini or something but even then keep the minis down. Kinda like the Ultimates. Ironman and captain America get their own mini but the ones people do not really know unless they are big comic fan do not.


Edit : Oh and Batman is not a superhero he is a detective , Vigilantly , Hero sure. Superhero Implies he has powers which he does not. He is as much as Superhero as James Bond or the punisher

 

[Planet-man]

No, that's my generally standard response to any mention of "real" magic or vampires or demons or whatnot. Any argument attempting to use the word "real" in conjunction with any of those terms is automatically made of lose.

First of all, I didn't say anything about real vampires or demons or anything.

Secondly, just because you don't believe in "real" magic doesn't mean you have to accuse those who do of being on hard drugs. It's the same as any aspect of any religious belief.

Heck, Moonie started a whole thread about it a little while ago.

Planet, Marvel does the same thing with magic and I don't hear you complaining about that.

Maybe because this is the "DC Comics" forum?

 

[jtg3885]

First of all, I didn't say anything about real vampires or demons or anything.

Secondly, just because you don't believe in "real" magic doesn't mean you have to accuse those who do of being on hard drugs. It's the same as any aspect of any religious belief.

Heck, Moonie started a whole thread about it a little while ago.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're not a Harry Potter fan?

Maybe because this is the "DC Comics" forum?

I'm just saying, why bring up how DC does it when both companies do it rather similarly? Just say "I hate magic in a superhero context" and that's that.

 

[Planet-man]

I disagree strongly with this. Marvel has more heroes than that just in the X-men comics so DC would need more like Supergirl and My favourite DC character Nightwing. Plus Teen Titans ect...

Well, I don't think the fact that one comic universe has or does something means the other one has to too.

Also, as a matter of sheer preference that has nothing to do with numbers, I cannot stand the concept of sidekicks in general, ESPECIALLY Batman's. Why would a giant Bat hang around with a teenage acrobat in bright red tights? But that's a matter for another thread.

I always felt like heroes should work for for the government (not all people like batman shouldn't) and have different teams that only deal with a certain threat level e.g

medium threat = teen titans
High threat = Justice league but not all the most known.
Maximum threat = Justice league made up of the top people e.g superman , wonder woman ect...

But that is just me.

I'm not sure about this, because once you have them working for a government you have to tackle international conflicts and military issues. If Superman worked for the US, would they tell him to fight in Iraq? What if he didn't want to?

The Magic issue

there should be Magic yes BUT IMO they need to distance it more. What I mean by that is allow heroes to have magic as power sure then have less characters as well who have what I would call "pure magic" which should be dealt with in a very mystical way.

This is more or less how I feel too.

Edit : Oh and Batman is not a superhero he is a detective , Vigilantly , Hero sure. Superhero Implies he has powers which he does not.

I totally agree, and said the same thing in my initial list.

I only mention him here because he's publicly affiliated with the Justice League, and seems to be thought of as a superhero within the DCU, which like you I don't think he should be.

I think Batman works best if no one knows if he has powers or not, because he's never made a public appearance. He comes out at night and fights criminals from the shadows. He rarely speaks, and when he does it's in a terrifying below, a la Batman Begins. The only people aware of his great detective skills are the main members of the JLA, who secretly work with him unbeknownst to the world.

But once again....this is more of a "How should Batman be written?" discussion.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're not a Harry Potter fan?

Heh, I'm a huge one, because magic is a secret in that world, and one of the biggest running themes in the series is the existence of a higher level of magic, beyond spells and wands.

I'm just saying, why bring up how DC does it when both companies do it rather similarly? Just say "I hate magic in a superhero context" and that's that.

You're right, and that's exactly what I meant. I just said DC because that's the universe we're dealing with.

 

[SSJmole]

Well, I don't think the fact that one comic universe has or does something means the other one has to too.

Yeah but its all about trying to one up. DC has event so Marvel needs one and works other way around too. One has more superheroes they can do bigger events get more readers and take away readers of the other. Sucks but it's true.

I'm not sure about this, because once you have them working for a government you have to tackle international conflicts and military issues. If Superman worked for the US, would they tell him to fight in Iraq? What if he didn't want to?

Why not he was on a cover beating up Hitler once :lol: but that is why I think It would work. Adds more conflict and drama and paints a lot of grey instead of the normal black and white.

If he refused I would like to see them threaten people he cared about ect.. Showing that in all wars there is not right or wrong there just is. And maybe if that is TOO far-fetched they work for something like S.H.E.I.L.D that would not send them to war but is still government and only use them for things like villains.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Ok, I'm just going to ignore the little flame war going on between Planet-man and JTG and Skotti.

However, in my opinion, what separates the DC from Marvel is the way that they try to promote mythological characters. Seriously, most people wouldn't even be able to name any DC heroes outside of the Big three. If you ask me, DC continuity is confusing enough with thousands of heroes constantly being rebooted...it would be better to stay with a smaller number.

Have some vigilantes fighting street crime and have some of the bigger guns fighting inter galactic threats...but I don't see the need to have 10 million heroes, each with his own rouges gallery of B-list supervillains.

 

[SSJmole]

But once again....this is more of a "How should Batman be written?" discussion.

Is there a thread for that? I looked to continue the batman dissuasion searched for it but could not find it.

 

[Planet-man]

Is there a thread for that? I looked to continue the batman dissuasion searched for it but could not find it.

No there isn't, but feel free to make one.

 

[moonmaster]

No, that's my generally standard response to any mention of "real" magic or vampires or demons or whatnot. Any argument attempting to use the word "real" in conjunction with any of those terms is automatically made of lose.

First of all, I didn't say anything about real vampires or demons or anything.

Secondly, just because you don't believe in "real" magic doesn't mean you have to accuse those who do of being on hard drugs. It's the same as any aspect of any religious belief.

Heck, Moonie started a whole thread about it a little while ago.

I'll step in, being the self-proclaimed expert.

There's a massive difference between "Magic" and "Magick". "Magick" is what you might call "real magic".

Magick, as defined by Aleister Crowley is "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will."

Magick is the force of imagination and in turn, perception. It's about the pure nature of symbolism, the thing that composes our entire reality. How do words and images make us cry and laugh? How can anyone imbue 26 little squiggles with enough power to change the way someone lives their life? It is our imagination that builds everything around us. Nothing could exist unless we thought that it did. So if it is our own perception that determines what exists and what doesn't, then we perform Magick - we create and transform and decide all of reality - every single day. If we didn't, then we wouldn't even exist ourselves.

For a more complete, 900-page definition of what magic really is, leap wildly out of your chair and run as quickly as possible to get all five volumes of Promethea by Alan Moore and JH Williams III.

And this has been your Occult Studies Minute. I'm Moonmaster, signing off.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

When I was in first grade I didn't do a homework assignment and I had to sit in the principal's office and finish it while everyone else was in an assembly watching a magician.

That is all I have to add.