Spider-Man Amazing Spider-Man: Brand New Day (#546-567) (Spoilers)

[ourchair]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

The only thing worthwhile about all of this is how they're handling Harry Osborn, who is a dark enough character to be allowed to divorce Liz Allen because they sure as hell can't retcon her and normie, because that gets into Daredevil territory.

I agree with this.

Is Liz Allen still as delusional and in constant self-denial as she was back in the 90s? Because I liked that too.

J.M. DeMatteis, was for the most part, one of the only good writers on a Spider-book from 1992 onwards.

 

[Bass]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Also:

After reading #546, that's making so much sense.

Is anyone else reminded of this quote from Astonishing X-Men?

"J. Jonah Jameson'll be tounge-kissing Spider-Man before the X-Men get any good press."

Good memory!


Anyhow, just read #546.

Haven't had this much enjoyment from a Spidey comic since SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE.

I had a good feeling about Dan Slott because he wrote on my favourite scenes of Spidey ever - in SHE-HULK.

She-Hulk is suing the Bugle for its libelous attacks on Spider-Man. Spidey is in court, taking the witness stand and She-Hulk's attorney friend, Pug, asks Spidey, "Why does Jonah hate you so much?"

Spidey responds, "It's because I'm black."

****ing awesome scene. It kept up its brilliance when Pug calls Peter Parker to the stand and attacks him for hating Spidey.

Slott did some sweet stuff in this issue; the Spider-Mugger mugging Peter Parker for example and the ensuing "Take this excuse for I need to change into my hero guise!" and the whole, "They took your shoes!". I laughed a lot. The panel before Jonah's heart attack, the growling, had me in hysterics.

Also - I liked how it turns out Spidey isn't 'gettin' lucky' with the chick on the first page, like we all thought. And it wasn't just shock value (though there was a healthy dose of it), they developed Mia from a manhungry lech to manipulative golddigger.

Yeah, pretty much liked everything.

But I didn't care for Carlie. Dull as ****. Crimebusting nerd-hotness with no self-esteem (but can STAND UP TO A MUGGER)... stupid, dull character. No interest there at all.

Mary Jane as Jackpot... it's a cool idea. I've said for ages that I think MJ as a superhero could work really well BUT I'm not sure here because the environment in which she's a superhero is so different. She's a legal, public superhero (as opposed to a vigilante) and is currently not on good terms with Spidey/Peter. So... she's really too similar to Black Cat. The reversal is in Black Cat is a criminal and Spidey's not - but basically, superhero on-off girlfriend with similar powers on the other side of the law... we've been there before.

However - MJ as a superhero; calling her Jackpot is a ****ing great idea.

Mister Negative... I think he should've been jet black with the same suit. The shading on his skin makes him too white/blue and doesn't sell the whole "negative" thing. What's worse is... Mister Negative looks like a Batman villain. I don't think he's going to turn out to be any good, sadly.

Also - some arbitrary nonsense: Harry can divorce multiple times but Peter can't. That's just silly.

And finally - I don't think the news would be talking about Spidey being missing nor the Bugle's drop in circulation. It's kinda like Batman's "urban legend" status - do people believe he's real or not? Is Spidey ignored and hated or loved as a kid's icon? It annoys me because if they need him to be hated, then Manhattan hates him. If they need him to be loved, then they love him ('cept for Jonah). I think it's always much more interesting is Spidey is just hated at worst or ignored at best. The tv news scene should've been done surreptitiously through the Bugle. The Bugle would talk about how they've successfully driven Spidey out of Manhattan. And guess what? THAT'S IN THE COMIC. The news scene is completely redundant and I think the idea that Spidey's mask is a huge hallowe'en seller... in real life, cool. In Spidey's world, no. At least not for me.

3/5 Tafts. Lots of fun. A couple of missteps, but a lot happens, it hits the ground running, and it's entertaining.

And... it's Spider-Man. Through and through. Yay!

 

[ProjectX2]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

It was... enjoyable. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad. However, it doesn't excuse all of the ****ty mess it's taken to get here... because that was retarded. But this is a good Spider-Man. I like this Spider-Man. See, this would be a brilliant Ultimate Spider-Man. Maybe if Marvel hadn't stopped ignoring the UU, then both 616 and UU Spider-Man could be great. But instead of we've got big messes.

I won't pay for this, but I'll read it. Because I liked Spider-Man. And I want to like him again. I hope these writers/artists can make Spider-Man great again... without anymore of these stupid changes and events.

One More Day was stupid. Brand New Day... I hope it's going to be great.

 

[Ice]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Hehehe.

Keith Giffen on OMD.

 

[E]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I just read #546.

I liked it.

I think I might start reading this regularly.

Marvel royally screwed up by the deal with the devil thing but I tell ya, they are making the most of it. I hate the idea of it still but #545 and 546 have been pretty darn good.

I'm not super familiar with Dan Slott's work but he kind of reminds me of Mark Millar in that he is able to make the most of small details. And of course McNiven is great - good choice putting him on the book.

I also read that two page explanatory spread and had to laugh - some people remember Spidey unmasking on TV but can't remember who it was? Are you ****ing kidding me? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Ice]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I also read that two page explanatory spread and had to laugh - some people remember Spidey unmasking on TV but can't remember who it was? Are you ****ing kidding me? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Magic. We don't have to explain it.

 

[Random]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

The issue was good but thing that really pisses me off about it is that it just screams that no one can create a good supporting character except for Stan Lee

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

A thought came to me. From what we are lead to believe, NOONE at all knows who Spiderman is.

What about the Venom symbiote? To exist in its normal state, doesn't it have to know who Spiderman is?

 

[Random]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

A thought came to me. From what we are lead to believe, NOONE at all knows who Spiderman is.

What about the Venom symbiote? To exist in its normal state, doesn't it have to know who Spiderman is?

Well I think you can assume Brock knows, unless they did a clean slate thing, cause if Stark knew he'd have Peter arrested

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Well I think you can assume Brock knows, unless they did a clean slate thing, cause if Stark knew he'd have Peter arrested

It made me think when I was reading the interview on AICN with Dan Slott and Steve Wacker. They said..

@: The first issue of BND clearly states that no one knows that Peter is Spidey. No one, huh? Not even his buddy The Human Torch or his teammates in the New Avengers?

SW: Nope. No one.

DS: What? Steve, did we just invalidate my entire SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH mini-series?! Darn it!

 

[Random]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

It made me think when I was reading the interview on AICN with Dan Slott and Steve Wacker. They said..

Yeah that's why One More piece of monkey feces is stupid

 

[Rawb]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Hey Guys,

Just read the latest ASM. While one more day was just plain silly I have to admit that I enjoyed this issue. I really did enjoy spider-man more when he wasn't married, and MJ just annoyed me. We'll still have plenty of MJ since he's tied to her waist in USM.

It seems the biggest beef isn't so much the reboot, well that's wrong, as it certainly is the reboot as well, but more on the way it's done. I think the most annoying aspect is the use of magic and how in this case it doesn't make sense. And it doesn't not really, but perhaps I can help!

This whole thing kind of reminds me of one of my favorite book series written by Terry Goodking. In the last 3 books there was a spell (it's a fantasy) called Chainfire that was ignited throughout the world. What Chainfire did was cause everyone to forget that one person existed. Even if they saw the person they would instantly forget them making them for all intents and purposes invisible. Anyways the thing about it is it didn't change the past or anything, just conviently filled the gaps in their memory with another version of the story, even if they were ILLOGICAL or CONTRADICTORY.

I guess what my point is it's like the civil war and stuff happened the way we saw but was changed and filled in with stuff that may not make sense, ie, him unmasking, but due to the nature of the "spell" the gap is just filled in with something else. Unfortunately, even if you follow that, it wouldn't explain how Harry came back and so forth, and I know it's not as simple as making someone forget a person, but I found it very similar and worth mentioning.

Er, anyways. BND wasn't too bad, I like old school Spidey.

 

[ourchair]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I also read that two page explanatory spread and had to laugh - some people remember Spidey unmasking on TV but can't remember who it was? Are you ****ing kidding me? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't read the issue, so I guess I can't really speak in terms of how that was presented, or how the context works or whatever, but it's not completely unbelievable.

I believe more than one writer --- Bendis, too --- has put Spidey in a situation unmasked and when the person sees his face, they just go, "I don't know who this is." Or, "It's just some nobody."

That might work here, considering that Peter Parker --- a former freelance photographer, and now a schoolteacher --- isn't exactly a recognizable face.

The only time I think Parker ever became a 'face' was when he briefly did a talk-show circuit to promote his photography book, "Webs" and if he's been de-aged a bit, then maybe that book never happened.

Yeah, these are total No-Prize excuses, but STILL.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

But it still doesn't explain why nobody would know who he is.

For God's sake, people remember Richard Jewell, and he's as nobody as you can get.

And dead now too.

 

[ourchair]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

But it still doesn't explain why nobody would know who he is.

I think Slott might be suggesting something unconciously here, though:

I don't mean to get my geek on, but here goes… The "mind-wipe" is a comic book trope. Except for a few changes, everything happened. People are just remembering it wrong. This has been done before many times in the Marvel U. From Sentry to Iron Man to Doc Strange.

Back in '98, Kurt Busiek did an Iron Man/Captain America special where Iron Man used an A.I.M.-built brainwashing satellite to make EVERYONE on Earth forget that he was ever Iron Man. Once upon a time, Stephen Strange made EVERYONE in EXISTENCE forget he was Sorcerer Supreme, and then he adopted the new identity of Dr. Stephen Saunders.

And it didn't change or invalidate ANY of their past comics. Look, hardcore fans can figure this stuff out. They've got the skills. It's all a matter of taking off the blinders, putting on your No-Prize hat, and getting creative.

He doesn't really address why people wouldn't remember who Peter is, but I think he implicitly suggests something about the metaphysics of comic book continuity.

Mephisto didn't create a logical situation where everyone just didn't remember who that unmasked Spider-Man was. He created an ILLOGICAL one. And that might be the whole point.

Everyone saw Peter Parker, but because Mephisto ****ed with reality, he basically made it so that people COULDN'T remember Peter Parker/Spider-Man unmasked even when his mug was broadcast all across TV.

In short, they don't remember because Mephisto said so, even though he didn't alter the circumstances of unmasking that would render The Secret Identity implausible.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Right, that's what I figured, but what you said before is that they just don't remember him because he's a nobody.

I read that Iron Man/Captain America Annual, and it seems like basically the same thing happened here, only through Mephisting.

What I want to know is, does Peter know that nobody knows his ID? Does he know that people used to and don't anymore?

 

[ourchair]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Right, that's what I figured, but what you said before is that they just don't remember him because he's a nobody.

Yes.

But I didn't argue it so simply though, nor was I really supporting it as the complete reason, having not actually read the issue yet.

What I want to know is, does Peter know that nobody knows his ID? Does he know that people used to and don't anymore?

HEADACHE.

This is why One More Day was so wrong.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

HEADACHE.

This is why One More Day was so wrong.

Especially since the wedding night "still happened," only without the wedding, and if I'm not mistaken, that's when Mary Jane revealed she ALWAYS knew Peter was Spider-Man because she used to wtach him sneak out of his window at night.

And, of course, none of any of it explains Harry or the web shooters.

 

[Rawb]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Another thing is, if he doesn't have the organic webbing, is he powered down now? I recall that after his "evolution" he was faster, almost twice as strong, his spider sense was better, his clinging ability improved, he had night vision or something... honestly, aside from organic webbing I really enjoyed the power upgrade. The stingers were lame, and are gone.. so I imagine he's been powered down.

 

[ourchair]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Especially since the wedding night "still happened," only without the wedding, and if I'm not mistaken, that's when Mary Jane revealed she ALWAYS knew Peter was Spider-Man because she used to wtach him sneak out of his window at night.

And, of course, none of any of it explains Harry or the web shooters.

I don't know how the whole 'I always knew' played out, but I'll take your word for it.

However, I don't have a problem with the whole "they had a wedding but it never pushed through" premise. So far, I imagine it as a 'the wedding arrangements happened, but the ceremony fell apart."

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Mephisting

Best term ever invented since nanomonkeys.

 

[E]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

It seems the biggest beef isn't so much the reboot, well that's wrong, as it certainly is the reboot as well, but more on the way it's done. I think the most annoying aspect is the use of magic and how in this case it doesn't make sense.

I was thinking it's kind of the opposite - the story itself is stupid but the way it was done (the execution of a stupid idea) was much better than maybe it should have been.

 

[Gemini]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I wonder if this means that Ben Reilly never knew who Spider-Man was.

and MJ still knows right? that was part of the deal right? right?

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Best term ever invented since nanomonkeys.

Although I made it up independently on my own, I have seen it around the internets too, so it is a great term, but apparently not overly clever.

 

[Random]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

And, of course, none of any of it explains Harry or the web shooters.

I see it as a ripple effect, since Peter didn't get married situations turn out a little different, major events like HoM, Civil War, etc. are relatively unaffected. cause really how much would person affairs contribute to big things like that?

I see it as two part to the Mephisting. Part one Mephisto rewrites reality so that the wedding never happened, so the future changed, but didn't effect Big things since Peter is still Doing the Spider-man thing only not married. Part two, MJ makes a separate deal where Mesphisto erases the memories and record's of Spider-man's identity. It wasn't the marriage not happening that made people forget. I would only except that second part if other people, like Iron Man and Dr Strange investigating what the **** happened to that knowledge.

Another thing is, if he doesn't have the organic webbing, is he powered down now? I recall that after his "evolution" he was faster, almost twice as strong, his spider sense was better, his clinging ability improved, he had night vision or something... honestly, aside from organic webbing I really enjoyed the power upgrade. The stingers were lame, and are gone.. so I imagine he's been powered down.

Yep, and its the best thing to come out of this mess. If they didn't undo that ridiculous crap I would have burned down Marvel Headquarters and close every site in exsistence

I wonder if this means that Ben Reilly never knew who Spider-Man was.

Oh boy, they're bringing back Ben Reilly

and MJ still knows right? that was part of the deal right? right?

I dont recall it ever being stated, but I would definitely guess

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I wonder if this means that Ben Reilly never knew who Spider-Man was.

Or how about the Jackal in general...

Did he just have no idea whatsoever who he was cloning? They were just clones of some guy??

 

[Bass]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

I also read that two page explanatory spread and had to laugh - some people remember Spidey unmasking on TV but can't remember who it was? Are you ****ing kidding me? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

It's like the Sentry. Loads of holes in his "no one can remember me" world - lots of things missing and not making sense; but no one noticed until Sentry started poking at it. Worked fine for him.

I just read #546.

I liked it.

I think I might start reading this regularly.

Marvel royally screwed up by the deal with the devil thing but I tell ya, they are making the most of it. I hate the idea of it still but #545 and 546 have been pretty darn good.

Exactly. There's no out for the marriage (because divorce is off the table, whether you like it or not) so they do this silly thing, get rid of the marriage, and now they have, it seems, a new life to Spidey. Which is great, because I feel he's been god awful boring for years. The last big reboot of Spidey, with JMS and Ramos and what not, MJ was absent, Spidey was on his own... it was old school. Then they had to address MJ, brought her back and it fell back to the boring nonsense it had been. Now, we're in the good 'classic' place again and hopefully it'll last longer this time round.

 

[E]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

It's like the Sentry. Loads of holes in his "no one can remember me" world - lots of things missing and not making sense; but no one noticed until Sentry started poking at it. Worked fine for him.

Except that was well explained and made sense. This isn't. Mephisto doesn't have these powers. Sentry had a robot doing it.

Which is great, because I feel he's been god awful boring for years.

That was my point before - the character himself is not boring. He didn't become boring when he got married. He's boring because bad writers are writing boring stories. They don't have the ability to write him in the situation he's in, so they create this convoluted, stupid idea of a story to change the character and dumb him down so that they can apply their limited ability.

Like I said, they're giving themselves an excuse to suck.

 

[Bass]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

Except that was well explained and made sense. This isn't. Mephisto doesn't have these powers. Sentry had a robot doing it.

...

"Mephisto, the devil, makes everyone forget" makes less sense than, "A robot did it"?!?!?!

After reading UNIVERSE X, I'm fine with Mephisto altering reality. Hell, it makes sense that he can. And he shouldn't explain the methodology to Spidey on how he does it. In UNIVERSE X, Mephisto goes ahead and rewrites reality using time travel. He could have done the same here. And he wouldn't go, "This is how I did it." He ain't the masked magician.

However - "well explained" I'll agree with. The Sentry storyline revolved around those inconsistencies whereas here they're kinda, "Erm... LOOK OVER THERE! SPIDEY'S KISSING SOMEONE! HARRY'S BACK!". So yeah, better explained, but I don't find it to be a confusing headache of rage-inducing problems.

That was my point before - the character himself is not boring. He didn't become boring when he got married. He's boring because bad writers are writing boring stories. They don't have the ability to write him in the situation he's in, so they create this convoluted, stupid idea of a story to change the character and dumb him down so that they can apply their limited ability.

Like I said, they're giving themselves an excuse to suck.

It's not about whether or not Spidey's marriage inherently made him boring or not - it's about Spidey's marriage making him inherently un-Spidey.

A married superhero CAN work. No reason why it can't.

But a married SPIDER-MAN doesn't - because it's not SPIDER-MAN. Spider-Man has to be down on his luck, and ultimately, alone. If he can keep coming home to a gorgeous sexbomb model of a wife, it's hard for him to retain that atmosphere.

Marrying Spider-Man is somewhat antithetical to the character, so when a writer is given the task of writing him, it CAN work, sure. But it means you have to write a bunch of non-Spidey scenes.

Think of SPIDER-MAN as a micro-genre. In a serious anti-war film, AIRPLANE like gags are inappropriate. A strange dream sequence, fine in a drama, wouldn't work in DIE HARD. Spidey, as a micro-genre, has that great, great, GREAT convention: "Spidey can't get the girl."

He can't get the girl because he stands her up at the prom because he's beating Doc Ock. He can't get the girl because she only likes Spidey, not Peter. He can't get the girl because the villain threatens her. He can't get the girl...

Spidey has a wife - that convention DIES. And it's an important one. Spidey is a teenage boy. "Can't get the girl" is a terrific scene for him. Married - it don't exist.

So I agree - marriage didn't make Spidey boring, but it removed a key component of the stories that character is built to tell.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Re: Amazing Spider-Man series discussion (spoilers)

So, they lose on story telling element, and that makes him Un-Spidey?

That's just poor writing on the writers part Bass