Ultimate Nightmare #5 discussion (spoilers)

TheManWithoutFear said:
I see most of you are fans of the heroes fight heroes scenerio. Like I said, both teams knew neither were the bad guys... so no one was out for blood. It was really probably an awkward situation.
But that ain't no excuse for Colossus to be brought down that easy. :noway:
Ok, MaxwellSmart brought up the point that his eyes should be protected also. But obviously they're not. It could've gone two ways Falcon pulled off how he took him down or Colossus eyes were some kind've transparent metal and Falcon couldn't take him down. Ellis went with the former and no we know that Colossus has a weakness in his otherwise invincible body.

Edit: If there's somewhere that says his eyes aren't vulnerable than I'll side with you guys.
TheManWithoutFear said:
Edit: If there's somewhere that says his eyes aren't vulnerable than I'll side with you guys.
His eyes SHOULDN'T BE vulnerable. I mean, if they're covered in metal as well, how the hell can his eyes be poked. His eyes shouldn't be his weak spot.
TheManWithoutFear said:
Prove it? I think the way his eyes look are because they're covered with a weaker thin layer of something. I think they're still vulnerable.
Prove what? I say they shouldn't, not that they are!
Nobody knows how invulnerable his eyes are until someone trys to do something to them.

Falcon hypothisized aloud that his eyes were a weakness, Colossus must have thought "maybe he's right, I better not take any chances".

Colossus also could have thought "Screw him, my eyes are just as tough as the rest of me, let him try."

But obviously he didn't, which is understandable. Maybe my eyes are invulnerable, but I'll never know becuase I've never tested their durability by sticking things in them.

I would assume my eyes are vulnerable as did Colossus.

That, plus he's a big chicken...ooooh...look out Colossus...here comes Aunt May and your not wearing your saftey goggles! Just kidding, for some reason the thought of Aunt May terrorizing the X men is stuck in my mind today.
TheManWithoutFear said:
Prove it? I think the way his eyes look are because they're covered with a weaker thin layer of something. I think they're still vulnerable.

Yup. Makes sense. If they were bullet proof he wouldn't be able to blink.
I think it makes perfect sense that a well trained military group can take down a bunch of teenagers. It's about time the X-Men were portrayed as such in the Ultimate Universe. The stuff they take on has always been a bit over the top for my liking, and I hated how evenly matched they were to the Ultimates (who had military back- up) in "War". You don't see Spidey taking down the Ultimates.

A bad-*** vet like Fury beating the **** out of an assassin like Wolverine makes sense.

And a biologist like the Falcon should know that Colossus having metal eyes makes no sense.

The Ultimates have experience and military training; they should be able to out- manouver the muties. Thankfully Ellis is moving the Ultimateverse toward realism.
The point that Ice and I keeping trying to make is that the idea that his eyes are just as vulnerable as anyone else's is not consistent with the rest of what we know about his invulnerability and for his eyes to be gouged they would have to be just as vulnerable as a human's eyes. They may not have shown colossus taking a bullet to the eye, but they have shown him survive massive explosions. Those kinds of blasts would certainly have damaged his eyes if not blinded him. So follow my logic, this issue implies that colossus's eyes are just as vulnerable as a humans. If this were true that would mean that 98% of his body is almost totally invulnerable and 2% of his body is incredibly vulnerable. WHAT SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!!!!
I love arguing sense in this stuff. The man can turn into steel. How does he even MOVE? It's seemless. It's not armour with joints. How does it work? It's "bio-organic metal", or whatever. It works. That's the end of it.

I LOVED the way Falcon took out Colossus. Funny, and it was effective. I told this to a friend today, and he burst out laughing, loving it.

On a slightly different aspect of Ultimate Nightmare:

A friend of mine read the final issue and said to me, "Dammit Bass. You spoil everything for me. It's no fun." The reason he said this was because when we first read Ultimate Nightmare #1, I said that Galactus was popping up as a result of this series, and I was right. I've also shared with him my theories on the Ultimate Universe, Ultimate Thor, and the rest of the Millar/Hitch run. Because I was right about Galactus, he thinks I'm right about everything and I explained to him (after laughing), "What are you talking about? I'm just guessing! It's not like I go online, find spoilers, then pretend that they're my ideas. I'm just guessing! Hell, I hope I'm wrong!"

Maybe now, he doesn't think that the future of the book is set.

Just felt like sharing that with you guys, dunno why.
You guys may have been wondering why I haven't posted here to respond, right? Well, due to snow it took me quite a while to get the actual issue and the site was down when I finally was ready to type something!

Anyway, over all, I thought that the series was mediocre at best, however, I knew it left room for improvement and was merely a building block for the trilogy which would pan out more in Secret and Galactus. I thought that the broadcast deal was anticlimatic, however, it WAS a pleasant surprise to actually see someone I would've never guessed... Vision! We shall see what happens in the coming chapters.

One thing that I thought was stupid, first off, was the whole Capt. America Crimson Captain deal. I thought that was a silly way to take up pages and it was certainly taking away from what Vision could've elaborated more on. I did think that it was very much in Russia's character to have resentment planted into their subject's heads, but I wouldn'tve taken it this far. I wish that, if anything, this would've been extracted.

Also, Vision... Wow. I was really floored when he was the person responsible for the broadcast and I really became interested in his character. He's the comic book version of Paul Revere, or, at least in the Ultimate Universe... I have a feeling that, although he may not make an appearance in the Ultimates, he'll be ready for the conclusion of the trilogy, as will Falcon, who I think will form a friendship with him while they are together.

I really like the characterization of all of the characters. I thought that Ellis did a particularly cool job with Fury, Captain America, and even Colossus, however, I thought that his Falcon came off too strong and his Wolverine a little off. I only hope that he continues what Wolverine was talking about more into the trilogy because, in a lot of ways, he's right and is talking with a lot more sense than anyone else.
Ultimate X-punks

I thought it was great that Falcon took down Collosus.

It was showing brains over braun. By doing the eye gouge then putting a gun to the eye, Sam used the power of suggestion on Peter. It was classic WWF in ring psychology. lol.

It was also showing that neither side really wanted to hurt the other. Collosus does tell Sam that he doesn't want to kill him, only knock him out. Then you take into account that authoritive military people with guns are scary to a teenager (even if you do have super-powers) and . . . voila: punked out X-men!

Trust me, the situation would have gotten ugly if Cap hadn't knocked Wolverine out. That was sweet.


Ya know I just gotta add here, Fury didnt knock out wolverine... everyone keeps saying this. What I see is fury cheap shot wolvie in the back of the head with a rifle thats appears to be unusable cuz jean bent the ends of them, and on the next page wolvies tryin to slice fury. Wolverine doesnt have a spider sense or anything to sense immediate danger and hes a hot head, so it doesnt surprise me at all that fury pulled that off... What knocked wolverine out was a grenade that cap threw. I have no issue with that either. But what no one else seems to compalain about is that grenade didnt hurt fury who was right next to wolverine. As for collosus i thought it was cool how falcon gouged his eyes. it made sense to me. If they were 100% metal, how the hell could he see? a thin layer of metal is easy to see through and look solid. People eat gold and silver foil on desert cakes, its not unrealistic this could be something similar. Why didnt he just blink and close his eyes? Well thats what u should be asking.
But overall i thought the issue coulda been alot better. the only thing to really be cool was vision. nothing else was worth the wait
I just read this issue .. hmm ... not worth the waiting really. I love to see how smart falcon is, and this a great soldier. He gotta team up with The Ultimates some more really. He was the only cool thing about Ultimate Nighmare really .. Vision was just a haft destroyed robot :roll:
The one question that I was asking myself when the issue was finished was what the heck did SHIELD do to all of the Russian super soldiers? Did they just leave them there? Are they excavating them, too, as well as Vision? I don't know, that wasn't made too clear to me.
I liked some parts of this issue, and some parts not so much. Because of all the delays, I had lost most of the interest in this mini, but anyway it feels nice to have read the ending, and preparing for Ultimate Secret.

I liked Ultimate Vision, and most of the characterizations. Captain America, Black Widow and Falcon was very good portraied the way they were - seasoned army veterans. The X-men were good also, and I have absolutely no problems with the way that fight ended - at first the X-men seemed to have the edge, because with both Wolverine and Colossus, they can pack a serious punch. But training and experience matters, and the X-men bites the dust. Very good. Realistic.

My problem was especially with Nick Fury, and in some part Wolverine as well. First of all - why did there have to be a fight? I understand that when you have a team-up (or what we shall call it) with two teams, then people except them to fight - but I think its silly. Last time I checked, the Xaviers School and the X-men was under SHIELD jurisdiction, and while they aren´t exactly friends - there is no reason for them to start a fight at first sight of each other. Granted, it was a stressful situation for both groups - but I think it was very out of character for Nick Fury to yell "X-men!" when they enter the room, and then start shooting. As recently as in Ultimes 2 #2, he talks with Xavier and Cyclops in the Triskelion. And Wolverine and Fury is even less likely to fight. Wolverine saved Furys life in the Gulf War, as revealed way back in the weapon X arc of Ultimate X-men. This history was not mentioned at all.. wich seems a bit strange to med.
It's funny that you brought that fight up... I initially thought the same thing. When they're SUPPOSED TO be on the same terms with one another, why would Fury unleash rounds of his guns on them, and be the first person to do so at that? I don't know I did think that was a little off when I first read it but it takes two to tango and the X-Men weren't trying to stop it, rather, they were into it. Of course, Colossus and Wolverine have been the two characters that are into fighting the most on the team, so I can see where this fits their characters well...

I liked your point about characterization, however, for a new member, or a reserve, don't you think Falcon was a little too potent in this arc? I mean, he was telling Capt. what to do and, in most cases, telling Fury he was wrong or answering Fury's questions. I liked Falcon, he just came off as a little too powerful.
Basically, as far as I can tell, Falcon was brought in specifically to tell everyone what to do and to take initiative of the mission. And he knew his bounds. Remember, he got up in Fury's face in #2 and Fury, with a look, intimidated him. Falcon calls Captain America by that moniker, until Cap says otherwise.

They're in a dangerous situation, Falcon's attitude is appropriate, and he keeps himself in check.

I thought he came off great. Hopefully, we'll see him again soon.
Like I said, I don't think we've seen the last of Vision or Falcon. I think, if not in Secret, the two of them will make an appearance by the end of Galactus. Vision seems to be an important pawn in what's going on and Falcon's starting to build a friendship with him, which can only mean reappearances as far as I am concerned. Next time, though, Vision better have legs and he better not be wearing any yellow.
I don't know why people seem to think that colossus's eyes are covered in thin metal. Do you know any metal that becomes transparent when it becomes thin? Aluminum foil is just as nontransparent as a steel plate. The reason colossus can see through his metal eyes is that his physiology is enhanced to enable him to. Just like him not having to breath is a result of his enhanced physiology. I do agree that the ultimates are better trained than the x-men, but I would have liked them to be defeated in a more reasonable way.