Who should get the 5th Ultimate Ongoing Series? (Multiple Choice)

[DIrishB]

We still don't know the whole story with Thor is not quite fair to hold him up as an example of "realstic magic" until his whole backstory is fully revealed.

Its all but confirmed. You're grasping straws here.

As for villains, can you really tell the me the difference between the way Baron Mordo and Kaluu use their magic? Heck Baron Mordo and Kaluu are almost exactly the same the character, an evil wizard who use magic in the service of a demon lord to gain more power.

How about Baron Mordo and Dormammu? Or Nightmare? Or the huge amount of other Strange villains. Again, they may all use magic, but their origins and what they do with it are different. Also, you're being completely one-sided with this argument, picking apart Strange without looking at DD's rogues and noting the similarities between them. Thats what one refers to as an unintelligent argument.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Its all but confirmed. You're grasping straws here.



How about Baron Mordo and Dormammu? Or Nightmare? Or the huge amount of other Strange villains. Again, they may all use magic, but their origins and what they do with it are different. Also, you're being completely one-sided with this argument, picking apart Strange without looking at DD's rogues and noting the similarities between them. Thats what one refers to as an unintelligent argument.

Don't use Daredevil agianst him.

I think everyone who thinks that no one can withhold an ultimate title is ridiculous. I should've voted for everyone on that list including Wolverine. Anything could be done with the ultimization of a character. It might not be good but it can still be done.

 

[DIrishB]

Don't use Daredevil agianst him.

He forced me to.

I think everyone who thinks that no one can withhold an ultimate title is ridiculous. I should've voted for everyone on that list including Wolverine. Anything could be done with the ultimization of a character. It might not be good but it can still be done.

Very true, but its more about who they think is likely to get the title and have it be successful, not just giving any character their own title and running with it (like 616 does).

 

[The Overlord]

Don't use Daredevil agianst him.

I think everyone who thinks that no one can withhold an ultimate title is ridiculous. I should've voted for everyone on that list including Wolverine. Anything could be done with the ultimization of a character. It might not be good but it can still be done.

I never said it couldn't be done, it just that looking at the history of Dr. Strange he has unable to maintain ongoing title for the past 40 years, so it would take a real genius to make the concept work in the Ultimate Universe and not fall to same pitfalls that 616 Dr. Strange has.

 

[The Overlord]

Its all but confirmed. You're grasping straws here.



How about Baron Mordo and Dormammu? Or Nightmare? Or the huge amount of other Strange villains. Again, they may all use magic, but their origins and what they do with it are different. Also, you're being completely one-sided with this argument, picking apart Strange without looking at DD's rogues and noting the similarities between them. Thats what one refers to as an unintelligent argument.

Yes its confirmed, but not explained, you can't say Thor's origin is realstic until it is fully explained.

As for DD rogues, if you point to point out any similarities between, be my guest.

 

[DIrishB]

Yes its confirmed, but not explained, you can't say Thor's origin is realstic until it is fully explained.

I think its the lack of any explanation which makes it realistic. Trying to explain Gods (or higher life-forms of any kind) usually ends up sounding contrived.

As for DD rogues, if you point to point out any similarities between, be my guest.

I'm honestly not very familiar with DD's rogues besides their names and powers. I know of Purple Man, Bullseye, Mr. Hyde, Kingpin, etc, but am not very knowledgable otherwise beyond, as I said, their powers and origins. I'm not a 616 reader, so that could be why. Now if you want me to rundown the few Ultimate DD villains we've gotten, I could do so (but all that consists of are Bullseye, Kingpin, Elektra to a degree, and that lame rapists college kid from the first mini). But since you're the expert on DD, why don't you list some and point out these vast differences?

 

[The Overlord]

I think its the lack of any explanation which makes it realistic. Trying to explain Gods (or higher life-forms of any kind) usually ends up sounding contrived.



I'm honestly not very familiar with DD's rogues besides their names and powers. I know of Purple Man, Bullseye, Mr. Hyde, Kingpin, etc, but am not very knowledgable otherwise beyond, as I said, their powers and origins. I'm not a 616 reader, so that could be why. Now if you want me to rundown the few Ultimate DD villains we've gotten, I could do so (but all that consists of are Bullseye, Kingpin, Elektra to a degree, and that lame rapists college kid from the first mini). But since you're the expert on DD, why don't you list some and point out these vast differences?

Yes but with Thor he is on team book and as people have noted this very thread if giave Thor his own title it may be hard to avoid silly things like fighting the Midgard Serpent. With magic and realism is less is more, which is hard with Dr. Strange.

Now as for DD foes, that in my opinion is what is attaractive about an UDD, revamping a rather sad rogues gallery. Take Mr. Hyde and Man-Bull, in the 616
MU they are both just super strong thugs, but in a UDD title Mr. Hyde can be changed into a cunning bloodthristy monster and Man-Bull can be changed into a sad and pathetic lab creature, just trying to escape its creators and be free.

Now see demon lords tend to be very similar, they all have vast intelligence, power and are pure evil and the evil wizards tend to be their henchmen. Just don't what twist you can give the demon lords and evil wizards to make them different in the Ultimate Universe.

 

[DIrishB]

Yes but with Thor he is on team book and as people have noted this very thread if giave Thor his own title it may be hard to avoid silly things like fighting the Midgard Serpent. With magic and realism is less is more, which is hard with Dr. Strange.

If they can successfully translate Thor, they can do it with a Strange ongoing.

Now as for DD foes, that in my opinion is what is attaractive about an UDD, revamping a rather sad rogues gallery. Take Mr. Hyde and Man-Bull, in the 616
MU they are both just super strong thugs, but in a UDD title Mr. Hyde can be changed into a cunning bloodthristy monster and Man-Bull can be changed into a sad and pathetic lab creature, just trying to escape its creators and be free.

Now see demon lords tend to be very similar, they all have vast intelligence, power and are pure evil and the evil wizards tend to be their henchmen. Just don't what twist you can give the demon lords and evil wizards to make them different in the Ultimate Universe.

Are you not seeing how you're being completely one-sided and hypocritical with your arguments? You're agreeing both DD's and Strange's rogues are lame (and the same to a degree), but only offering ways to make the DD villains "cool" in their Ultimate versions. Why does this logic not also apply to Strange and his villains then?

And I'm not going to come up with ideas of how to Ultimatize Strange's villains, as I'm not a writer and not paid to do so. But I will continue to argue the legitimacy of a Strange ongoing. As I said, there are many things I'd like to see before that, but Daredevil isn't one of them. I think he works better in minis.

 

[ourchair]

There is a reason Dr. Strange can't maintain a title in 616 MU. Strange is in the same boat Aquaman is in, Aquaman can only have undersea adventures in his title and once you get sick of those there's no point in reading the title anymore.

Yeah, I'm sick of the Fantastic Four because they keep fighting would-be conquerors and sci-fi creatures. I'm also sick of the X-Men because they're always fighting mutant hate groups and ascensionist megalomaniac terrorists. And Spider-Man? He's always fighting jerks who have nothing better to do with their water-electric-sand-vibrator whatever powers than be petty crooks. Those stories have SUCH a limited thematic range.

Aquaman's problem was never his adventures undersea. His problem was that it was difficult to relate to a character who is an undersea king who speaks to fishes. That combination of exotic/alien and high and mighty regal-ness makes a character difficult to relate to.

Strange suffers a similar problem with his distant and aloof demeanor and his out-of-touch with humanity schtick. The fact that he fights interdimensional warlocks and space-time crossing minor deities does not make him any less interesting a superhero than anyone else.

I find fault with your premise because you're basically saying that flame-headed warlocks, shambling moss creatures and fish-fiends are 'by essence' less interesting than cybernetic tentacle-armed mad scientists and world conquering space-bats.

I never said it couldn't be done, it just that looking at the history of Dr. Strange he has unable to maintain ongoing title for the past 40 years, so it would take a real genius to make the concept work in the Ultimate Universe and not fall to same pitfalls that 616 Dr. Strange has.

In my humble opinion, that genius would be Grant Morrison.

 

[John Q. Public]

And also Daredevil is WACK. Nobody wants to read Ultimate Handicap vol. 1.

:lol: He's not handicapped. He's just differently abled. (quickly re-arranges Murdoch's furniture).

 

[The Overlord]

If they can successfully translate Thor, they can do it with a Strange ongoing.



Are you not seeing how you're being completely one-sided and hypocritical with your arguments? You're agreeing both DD's and Strange's rogues are lame (and the same to a degree), but only offering ways to make the DD villains "cool" in their Ultimate versions. Why does this logic not also apply to Strange and his villains then?

And I'm not going to come up with ideas of how to Ultimatize Strange's villains, as I'm not a writer and not paid to do so. But I will continue to argue the legitimacy of a Strange ongoing. As I said, there are many things I'd like to see before that, but Daredevil isn't one of them. I think he works better in minis.

Really now, no need for name calling. They sucessfully translated Thor in a team book, not his own going series where they would have to have to deal with his magical nature all the time, big difference.

Also you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Its not a matter of how lame villains are, but how well they could fit in the Ultimate Universe. Yes DD's rogues gallery is lame, but it would be far easier to give them revamp and introduce them to the UU, this not because of Dr. Strange villains are lamer than DD villains, indeed Dr. Strange's silver age rogues gallery was far better than DD's. No the reason why Dr. Strange's rogues gallery would be harder to transfer to the UU, is because they are fantastic creatures, I just don't see how evil wizards and demon lords could fit in the realstic UU. I say Dr. strange would only work in mini, because the concept as shown by Dr. strange's sucess in regular Marvel, works best in small doses. That's my opinion and if you don't like it, too bad.

Yeah, I'm sick of the Fantastic Four because they keep fighting would-be conquerors and sci-fi creatures. I'm also sick of the X-Men because they're always fighting mutant hate groups and ascensionist megalomaniac terrorists. And Spider-Man? He's always fighting jerks who have nothing better to do with their water-electric-sand-vibrator whatever powers than be petty crooks. Those stories have SUCH a limited thematic range.

Aquaman's problem was never his adventures undersea. His problem was that it was difficult to relate to a character who is an undersea king who speaks to fishes. That combination of exotic/alien and high and mighty regal-ness makes a character difficult to relate to.

Strange suffers a similar problem with his distant and aloof demeanor and his out-of-touch with humanity schtick. The fact that he fights interdimensional warlocks and space-time crossing minor deities does not make him any less interesting a superhero than anyone else.

I find fault with your premise because you're basically saying that flame-headed warlocks, shambling moss creatures and fish-fiends are 'by essence' less interesting than cybernetic tentacle-armed mad scientists and world conquering space-bats.

In my humble opinion, that genius would be Grant Morrison.

What I'm saying is how can you create realstic versions of flame-headed warlocks, shambling moss creatures and fish-fiends, which are by their nature as fantastic creatures.

But perhaps Grant Morrison could make it work.

 

[John Q. Public]

Whoa.

Whoa....


Your turn, DB and OChaiR.

 

[DIrishB]

Really now, no need for name calling.

I'm not trying to resort to namecalling, only pointing our your argument seems flawed. I understand what you're saying and don't completely disagree, but as I said I believe there are other characters/teams which deserve an ongoing first. However, I would love to see another DD mini, and have been one of the most vocal supporters of more of them.

They sucessfully translated Thor in a team book, not his own going series where they would have to have to deal with his magical nature all the time, big difference.

Good point, but I still think it can be done well. The Godhood and the magic things are two totally different animals. The only thing they have in common are neither really fits in a "real-world" type setting, but lets face it, however hard the Ultimate universe tries, its far from "real-world" or normal. We've got super-humans and mutant galore, at least a dozen alien races, and a huge galaxy threatening force in the form of Gah Lak Tus. Thats the thing I think you're either missing or ignoring. So to bring magic into the fold, at least in a limited and sensical way, is by no means a bad idea, at least at this point.

Also you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Its not a matter of how lame villains are, but how well they could fit in the Ultimate Universe. Yes DD's rogues gallery is lame, but it would be far easier to give them revamp and introduce them to the UU, this not because of Dr. Strange villains are lamer than DD villains, indeed Dr. Strange's silver age rogues gallery was far better than DD's. No the reason why Dr. Strange's rogues gallery would be harder to transfer to the UU, is because they are fantastic creatures, I just don't see how evil wizards and demon lords could fit in the realstic UU.

I actually agree on most of those points.

I say Dr. strange would only work in mini, because the concept as shown by Dr. strange's sucess in regular Marvel, works best in small doses. That's my opinion and if you don't like it, too bad.

That's how I feel about Daredevil. I just think it would get too repetitive and end up quickly trudging along, losing readers' interest. More DD minis, I'm down. A DD ongoing? Not so much. I'll definitly buy it, don't get me wrong (I'll buy all Ultimate titles, even ones that are terrible like UIM, merely to appease my completist nature), but would just much rather see a new avenue explored, which Daredevil really isn't. Sure, it could be an urban, gritty crime drama, but how different would that be from the 616 DD title(s)? As others have said, it would really just be the same thing, whether you change the villains origins/powers/personalities or not. While this also applies to Strange, I think the fact that he uses magic, etc, is a new and really unexplored facet of the Ultimate universe.

What I'm saying is how can you create realstic versions of flame-headed warlocks, shambling moss creatures and fish-fiends, which are by their nature as fantastic creatures.

You don't. I'm not saying keep the 616 Strange villains the same, obviously things should and would have to be changed. But they can still retain a mystical influence, much as was showcased in the UMTU #12-13 issues.

But perhaps Grant Morrison could make it work.

He could make an Ultimate Howard the Duck title work.

Whoa.

Whoa....


Your turn, DB and OChaiR.

I went, your turn to roll Ourchair.

 

[John Q. Public]

I'm not trying to resort to namecalling, only pointing our your argument seems flawed. I understand what you're saying and don't completely disagree, but as I said I believe there are other characters/teams which deserve an ongoing first. However, I would love to see another DD mini, and have been one of the most vocal supporters of more of them.



Good point, but I still think it can be done well. The Godhood and the magic things are two totally different animals. The only thing they have in common are neither really fits in a "real-world" type setting, but lets face it, however hard the Ultimate universe tries, its far from "real-world" or normal. We've got super-humans and mutant galore, at least a dozen alien races, and a huge galaxy threatening force in the form of Gah Lak Tus. Thats the thing I think you're either missing or ignoring. So to bring magic into the fold, at least in a limited and sensical way, is by no means a bad idea, at least at this point.



I actually agree on most of those points.



That's how I feel about Daredevil. I just think it would get too repetitive and end up quickly trudging along, losing readers' interest. More DD minis, I'm down. A DD ongoing? Not so much. I'll definitly buy it, don't get me wrong (I'll buy all Ultimate titles, even ones that are terrible like UIM, merely to appease my completist nature), but would just much rather see a new avenue explored, which Daredevil really isn't. Sure, it could be an urban, gritty crime drama, but how different would that be from the 616 DD title(s)? As others have said, it would really just be the same thing, whether you change the villains origins/powers/personalities or not. While this also applies to Strange, I think the fact that he uses magic, etc, is a new and really unexplored facet of the Ultimate universe.



You don't. I'm not saying keep the 616 Strange villains the same, obviously things should and would have to be changed. But they can still retain a mystical influence, much as was showcased in the UMTU #12-13 issues.



He could make an Ultimate Howard the Duck title work.



I went, your turn to roll Ourchair.

Bravo for you. OC dodged the challenge.

 

[DIrishB]

So far we're at Ultimate Hulk, Ultimate Daredevil, and Ultimate Nick Fury/SHIELD all tied for getting their own respective series (if we actually had some say, which we don't), with Ultimate Academy of Tomorrow and Ultimate Hawk-Owl and Woody coming up as second and third respectfully. I really didn't expect Hawk-Owl and Woody to do that well, but its a nice surprise. I'm glad to see Ultimate DD at least getting some love from the fans, even if his own Ultimate ongoing won't happen, at least anytime soon. I'd also love to see an Ultimate Nick Fury/SHIELD book, and am even quite open to the Ultimate Hulk ongoing idea. Man, I really look forward to finding out what it'll be.

 

[ourchair]

No the reason why Dr. Strange's rogues gallery would be harder to transfer to the UU, is because they are fantastic creatures, I just don't see how evil wizards and demon lords could fit in the realstic UU. I say Dr. strange would only work in mini, because the concept as shown by Dr. strange's sucess in regular Marvel, works best in small doses.

The fact that Dr. Strange has only seen success within sporadically occuring short-lived ongoings and a few minis is no indicator that it cannot work at all as a serialized piece of fiction.

Regardless, I've always felt that the Ultimate Universe is less about being 'realistic' than it is about contextualizing the outlandish, the superhuman and the fantastic within a twenty-first century setting. In fact, this is precisely what makes it so 'down to earth' --- it adopts the classic Marvel attitude of what would happen if the strange and the bizarre happened in our world and how would we react to it realistically?

In the 60s, these effects were seen with how mutants were seen as an insidious social menace not unlike the red scare, and what the impact of a living legend would be on a society that has had 15 years to get over the patriotic unification that defined the 40s and how a masked do-gooder would be viewed with suspicion by the press.

In the modern Ultimate Universe, this 'realism' is not necessarily maintained by inhibiting the fantastic, but by merely taking the same philosophy to a new era.

This time, mutants breed more than just street-level prejudice but an insecurity that would make mankind feel the urge to develop a protectorate force against the threat of the superhuman. This time, that peacekeeping force would be subject to both celebrity worship and left-wing suspicion.

This time, scientific research is an endeavor no longer viewed with the idealist notions of 'progress for its own sake' and the humanist vision of the explorer as hero, but rather, scientific research is purpose-driven and fully realized as part of a military-industrial complex.

So what is it about goblins, wizards, and demon shamans that crosses the imaginary line of 'realistically fantastic' and 'overly outlandish'? How do we define that line? And for that matter, how hard should it be enforced in proportion to the ends of the Ultimate Universe? Dr. Strange has great potential because it presents elements of the fantastic that are ultimately inexplicable.

Ultimate America is reacting to scientific mystery and post-human scare by attempting to create measures of defense and control. Ultimate Strange presents the possibility of seeing this fictional America react to the very things it cannot comprehend, that it cannot reasonably contain.

 

[randomthoughts]

MWoF has the correct answer. All these guys could be successfully ultimised and have a popular ongoing. Good writers can make even the most pathetic characters readable (though I like all the characters mentioned thus far).

While Fury is an option I support because it would continue the political themes of the Ultimates 1 & 2 when Ultimates 3 arrive, I'm starting to think DD may indeed be the guy to get it. Seeing how his 616 life and supporting cast has been irreversibly alterred by Smith, Bendis and will be changed further by Brubaker (check out the cover to his second issue for spoilers) a Daredevil title with a classic pre Vol. 2 ethos and cast could be on the cards.

 

[DIrishB]

The fact that Dr. Strange has only seen success within sporadically occuring short-lived ongoings and a few minis is no indicator that it cannot work at all as a serialized piece of fiction.

Regardless, I've always felt that the Ultimate Universe is less about being 'realistic' than it is about contextualizing the outlandish, the superhuman and the fantastic within a twenty-first century setting. In fact, this is precisely what makes it so 'down to earth' --- it adopts the classic Marvel attitude of what would happen if the strange and the bizarre happened in our world and how would we react to it realistically?

In the 60s, these effects were seen with how mutants were seen as an insidious social menace not unlike the red scare, and what the impact of a living legend would be on a society that has had 15 years to get over the patriotic unification that defined the 40s and how a masked do-gooder would be viewed with suspicion by the press.

In the modern Ultimate Universe, this 'realism' is not necessarily maintained by inhibiting the fantastic, but by merely taking the same philosophy to a new era.

This time, mutants breed more than just street-level prejudice but an insecurity that would make mankind feel the urge to develop a protectorate force against the threat of the superhuman. This time, that peacekeeping force would be subject to both celebrity worship and left-wing suspicion.

This time, scientific research is an endeavor no longer viewed with the idealist notions of 'progress for its own sake' and the humanist vision of the explorer as hero, but rather, scientific research is purpose-driven and fully realized as part of a military-industrial complex.

So what is it about goblins, wizards, and demon shamans that crosses the imaginary line of 'realistically fantastic' and 'overly outlandish'? How do we define that line? And for that matter, how hard should it be enforced in proportion to the ends of the Ultimate Universe? Dr. Strange has great potential because it presents elements of the fantastic that are ultimately inexplicable.

Ultimate America is reacting to scientific mystery and post-human scare by attempting to create measures of defense and control. Ultimate Strange presents the possibility of seeing this fictional America react to the very things it cannot comprehend, that it cannot reasonably contain.

Excellent post, Ourchair. You put it much better than I could, as well as presenting it differently than I did.

MWoF has the correct answer. All these guys could be successfully ultimised and have a popular ongoing. Good writers can make even the most pathetic characters readable (though I like all the characters mentioned thus far).

While Fury is an option I support because it would continue the political themes of the Ultimates 1 & 2 when Ultimates 3 arrive, I'm starting to think DD may indeed be the guy to get it. Seeing how his 616 life and supporting cast has been irreversibly alterred by Smith, Bendis and will be changed further by Brubaker (check out the cover to his second issue for spoilers) a Daredevil title with a classic pre Vol. 2 ethos and cast could be on the cards.

Joe Q. has time and again said there won't be an Ultimate Daredevil ongoing series because it would be far too close to Ultimate Spider-Man. This has been mentioned ad nauseum.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Excellent post, Ourchair. You put it much better than I could, as well as presenting it differently than I did.

Read the same to me.

Joe Q. has time and again said there won't be an Ultimate Daredevil ongoing series because it would be far too close to Ultimate Spider-Man. This has been mentioned ad nauseum.

Well that makes sense? :sure: Has anyone seen interaction between these two in the Ultimate Universe? They're incredibly different. And the mere fact that Spider-Man's a kid, alone says differently. Joe Q. doesn't even know what he's talking about... yeesh :roll:

 

[Ice]

He never said it would be far too close to Spider-Man. He said he would be far too close to his 616 counterpart.