Pandrio
Well-Known Member
That's what I thought.icemastertron said:
Who should get the 5th Ultimate Ongoing Series? (Multiple Choice)
- Thread starter TheManWithoutFear
- Start date
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
TheManWithoutFear said:
I take that as a compliment.
The point is the subject matter they cover would be too similar. Sure, Daredevil could cover the more "adult" oriented street crime stuff, but its still street crime. Thats the point. And no, the fact that Spider-Man is a kid really doesn't say different.
icemastertron said:
Yeah, you're right, I just mixed up what he said and what most member's argument for not bringing an Ultimate Daredevil title into the mix at this point.
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Daredevil's Rouge's would serve as a grittier street crime unlike Spider-Man's superpowered meglomaniacs.
Sorry... :?
Sorry... :?
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
TheManWithoutFear said:
No one's arguing that, but thats about the only difference the title would offer, besides the main character in Daredevil being a blind lawyer instead of a spastic high school student. The moral lessons would be too similar, the storylines would be too similar, the subject matter is too similar.
I've said time and again we need more Ultimate DD minis, but he's just not appropriate for an ongoing at this point.
I don't know how many times this needs to be brought up, but each ongoing Ultimate books represents a certain facet of the universe:
USM = street-level crime fighter
UXM = socio-political examination
UFF = science-based, unbelievable explorations and discoveries
The Ultimates = military-industrial super-group
What facet would an Ultimate Daredevil ongoing cover? You guessed it, street-level crime fighter...just in Hell's Kitchen only. You see where I'm going with this? This is what I mean by an ongoing UDD and USM title being virtually the same, I'm not talking about the characters themselves.
Something like a Dr. Strange ongoing (however unlikely) could be the mystical or magical book, with unbelievable but not over-the-top villains and storylines, sort of like the UFF, but magic instead of science-based, thereby giving it more of an element of mystery and unknown, which should also be a major trait of the book.
An Ultimate Captain Mahr-Vehl ongoing could be a space-based book, exploring our solar system and others, but without going the whole tacky, ridiculous cosmic stories route like the old Silver Surfer issues. It could also be a good way to learn more about those 11 or so other alien species living on Earth we haven't learned about yet.
And an Ultimate Defenders book, while inherently being similar to USM, would be more comedic-oriented and thereby be a comedy-adventure book. It would also be focusing on their mostly regular human members, who are just a group of wannabes but who try desperately hard to be taken seriously. It would probably also be better as a mini than an ongoing, but it could work either way.
The point is a new ongoing is going to need a new dimension to examine, one that hasn't been beaten to death already or hopefully touched on by the other titles, and an Ultimate DD title just won't be that. Sure, it could be a nice Law & Order crossed with Spider-Man type book, but at this point would just be a bit too redundant for a long-standing ongoing.
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TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Street-Level Crime fighter dealing with religious, dealing with adult relationships, the pyschology of a guy who works in the shadows (unlike Spider-Man and moreso The Ultimates), and most importantly law. It's so much more than Street Level Crime fighter and USM is so much less.DIrishB said:
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
TheManWithoutFear said:
Its still semantics in terms of the bigger picture, which you're refusing to admit. And its still too similar.
Like I said, I'd love to see more Ultimate Daredevil, just don't think it'll work in an ongoing. Not that I'm against an UDD ongoing, mind you, I just am illustrating the reasons it won't happen.
And really, USM is street-level crime fighter, more or less, however you want to look at it. Its still the same position and idea as Daredevil, and now you're only looking for excuses to argue the point merely to validate a UDD ongoing.
ourchair
Well-Known Member
Agreed.DIrishB said:
:rolls: That's one of the most bollocks things I've heard from you in a while. 'USM is so much less?'MWOF said:
No one with a good grasp of who the Marvel characters are, least of all me, is ever going to argue that Daredevil is identical to Spider-Man. That's an argument as stupid as saying as Batman is Daredevil with more money.TheManWithoutFear said:
But the argument you present, while a sound distinction of what makes Daredevil NOT Spider-Man, is merely a series of minor details that as DIB points out, don't take the big picture into consideration. Religion and spirituality? Let's make Ultimate Ghost Rider! Law and heroism? Let's make Ultimate She-Hulk her own series! Works in the shadows? How about an Ultimate Cloak & Dagger ongoing?
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
ourchair said:
Yeah, that pretty much said everything I didn't.
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
DIrishB said:
Ourchair said:
I'm not looking for excuses... well, wait, I am but so is everyone else.
Ultimate Spider-Man does not handle the aspect of fighting crime in the street. Spider-Man deals with a high powered villain robbing a corporation of a valuable metal unless it's a specific instance where they have to feature some kind of emotional distraught Peter is suffering through. Gang War wasn't even a great portrayal of street crime. It was 1920's mafia. What you guys are not looking for is what Street Crime should be on an Ultimate Level as Politics/War is in the Ultimates. No goofy dialogue. No kid coming to turns with being a Superhero helping a lady who just got her purse snatched. We're talking about rape, murder, drugs with villains who have no to little powers and who are capable of more than saying, "I just got powers - I'm crazy now."
Since Peter's gonna be in High School his entire run, we can skip past the "I'm not sure if I want to do this or how to handle it" and get right into this is what I'm here for, these people need saving on a personal level and I'm willing to give up my own life to do it.
And Ourchair, there's no point in saying not Daredevil but Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Cloak and Dagger just for the sake of it not being Daredevil because it's the same story with different characters. Daredevil just has the mythos big enough to ultimize.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
TheManWithoutFear said:
Didn't we see almost all those things in the minis featuring Daredevil? Maybe no drugs, but rape and murder certainly.
Its still too similar to the basic ingredients of what USM is, and the differences you're labeling are still semantics. You're saying the same thing over and over.
Why are we debating this anyway, you and I both know its not going to happen anytime soon. You're better off arguing the validity of another UDD mini, which is likely and which I'll back you 100%. An ongoing just isn't going to happen though.
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Right, so further explore them in an ongoing.DIrishB said:
I'm saying it's not similar. Sematics? Then what else makes things different?DIrishB said:
I'm only debating because the title of the threads says there's one coming. And Daredevil's got as good of a shot as any if not better.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Not if the head-hancho himself said no.TheManWithoutFear said:
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
I don't believe him. E even said himself he thought they were lying at one point because of all of the hints.icemastertron said:
MaxwellSmart
Well-Known Member
How is it that the Union/Excalibur didn't make it on the list? They're the ones I think have the most potential at actually getting one. However, I think by the end of Ultimates 2 we'll have a much better idea of who is actually going to get it.
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ourchair
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying you're looking for excuses. I'm saying that using the perceived flaws of one property in order to elevate your cause for another property is just poor form.MWOF said:
To be fair, I'm not going to say that an Ultimate DD ongoing is an automatic impossibility. However, my biggest problem is that MWOF is still arguing his point with the same old reasons without trying to provide enough justification other than talking about how BIG and IMPORTANT the mythos of the character is, while simultaneously putting down the mythos of other characters.DIrishB said:
I'll bet you good money that in the year 2000, there were probably many other discussions on many other message boards that thought that the Ultimates was a stupid idea because the Avengers had an inferior mythos or that Spider-Man is so super-classic and quintessential that modernizing was a foregone conclusion, both of which make sense to a degree but are ultimately fallacious lines of reasoning.
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
? How else do you "argue a point"?ourchair said:
ourchair
Well-Known Member
By not saying neener neener neener this property (Spider-Man) is not as good as this property (Daredevil) which SO deserves more attention.TheManWithoutFear said:
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TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Well what I begin to even think that or present my arguments in such a way, let me know. :sure:ourchair said:
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
icemastertron said:
Thats what I figured.
TheManWithoutFear said:
Which could be true. I'm not against an ongoing UDD series, I just don't think it'll happen for the reasons I listed previously.
And I think other characters/teams would be overall more interesting and able to focus on a different aspect of the Ultimate universe, as each Ultimate ongoing is supposed to do (and pretty much does).
