Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

I flicked through secret files. There's a page of text by morrison...i thought it was crap, but nerdy crap. I think that's him "addressing the continuity issues with death of the new gods and countdown", at least i hope it is.

The story is written by Len Wein who wrote JLA back in the day...he's the guy who wrote libra in the first place and this story does a lot to flesh him out. it's definitely worth a read even if you're not following final crisis - it reminds me of the rogue one-shots Johns did when he was on the flash.
 
I read #6.

This is stupidly done.

Batman's entire sequence, which is supposed to have heft, feels completely out of place. It might be because he shows up on page 26 of the issue. And the last time we saw him waaaaas... issue 2? Batman is a bit part in this series. His big 'scene' just feels tacked on.

Same for Superman's sudden appearance.

I kinda like a bunch of elements about this series, but Morrison is not juggling the characters properly. I have no idea who these Japanese heroes are, and Morrison is not making me want to know. And they also appear to be almost incoherent. You've got the Flashes and the stuff on the watchtower and blah blah blah blah blah. The big emotional payoff in this issue had none because Morrison forgot to put the character in the bloody comic.

Much like Manhunter's 'death'. Or the Green Lanterns or the Monitors... none of whom are in this issue.

I do like the idea of them abandoning the current DCU because it's so poopy and seeking refuge in another. That is a smart idea for a retcon.

Five Ways to Refocus Final Crisis so it makes sense!

1) JUSTICE LEAGUE - Focus on the core League; Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (not the Corps), and Flash (not Barry, Jay and the rest). In each issue the forces of Darkseid claim one of the big seven. #1 no one is lost. But from #2-6, one member of the League is lost until we get to #7 with the last member of the League having to deal with the rest. The climax would be the last member of the League not only defeating which League members get 'Seided (since one or two might die), but also Darkseid and the New Gods and humanity and kinda the whole idea of anti-life. The series is radically different depending on who's left standing. Superman's last stand is going to be significantly different to Batman's or Wonder Woman's. The idea is that the entire story is through these key six characters and the story is this terrible shredding of that team.

2) MISTER MIRACLE - The New Gods are incarnated in human hosts. As a huge, almost incomprehensible superhero war is waged in the background, the Justice League versus Darkseid's forces, the series uses that backdrop to tell the tale of Mister Miracle as he fights to save this world and restore an old one. Consider Mister Miracle as Frodo and the Justice League as the three hunters and you get what I mean.

3) THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES - The first issue is primarily set in their time, where we see how the DCU heroes are legends here. All in the background of their lives. They then go back in time to stop Darkseid. They feel that it's important, that they have to, or some bull**** reason. Doesn't matter. Point is: they go back in time to stop Darkseid without anyone knowing. And inadvertently begin the end of the world. It all goes wrong. Maybe Darkseid engineered it. It ends with the Legion realising the only way to save the present is to sacrifice their future. This could kinda work with the Montiors too.

4) LEX LUTHOR - Flip the whole concept over. Lex leads a supervillain team against Darkseid and an anti-life Justice League. Some villains think they can make a deal with the devil. Who can trust who on the team? A dozen premiere top supervillains slowly being whittled down as they try to save the world. Luthor - he bows to no one. Ra's Al Ghul - big on the environment. Ares - Darkseid is a rival god; Ares likes to fight, Ares' wants to fight this fight. Prometheus - because his Ghost house is their safe zone which makes it all the worse as he'd betray the villains and that would be awesome. Deathstroke - the tag-team of Prometheus and Deathstroke that turns in a duel to the death would be so much fun. Doomsday - more a weapon than a member, that Luthor has to use carefully. Gorilla Grodd - anti-life versus his superior intellect and mind control; the result is Grodd gets owned. Mirror Master - a very likeable villain that can make the team more likeable, plus it'll be sad when he gets anti-lifed. T.O. Morrow - When they get a hold of some New God tech, this guy tries to reverse engineer it into a God-Weapon they can use against them, but be careful, for those who stare into the abyss sometimes have the abyss stare into them...

No Joker on this team as that would probably suck. And no Superboy Prime as he's rubbish. And no Black Adam until he gets a personality that isn't Namor (or vice-versa).

5) THE LOSERS - By the end of #2, there's like, maybe, 5 people who aren't 'Seided. And they're all rubbish. Jimmy Olsen, Bulleteer, Booster Gold (but not Skeets - he got hit by the internet's anti-life upload), Weather Wizard (because he's a villain, but his powers don't work because his wand is kinda broken, and because he had a power that could solve global warming and used it to rob banks and he'd suck so much), and choose your own 5th guy. And you have five (or four) losers because these are precisely the type of heroes you want facing a villain who conquers galaxies by depressing them. So the group fighting this fight have low self-esteem and are the LAST people you'd expect to able to fight an army with a mathematical proof that states "life isn't worth living". And each character reacts differently to it: Jimmy Olsen feels helpless but is inspired to heroism by Superman. Bulleteer doesn't want to fight or be a hero, she wants to give up. Booster Gold is completely convinced that he's a hero and it'll all work out, but as the evidence mounts that becomes a reckless self-denial. And Weather Wizard thinks he's important, only to discover he's kinda messed up his life. He's done the whole 'living' bit wrong. I don't know which of them make it out alive, maybe none do. Maybe the all do. But it would be awesome to see them do it. Maybe it's a 300 type thing; they all die, but their deaths inspire others to fight anti-life.

The point of all this: Morrison did this bizarre epic focusing on dozens and dozens of characters and alien races and galaxies and universes and time periods, and the major players of his title end up being sidelined, so that any deaths, corruptions, and returns just do not have any real impact. Instead, you pick a small group of characters, and set them up against a world that is rapidly turning into hell. As the onslaught of anti-life occurs, and each one is picked off one by one, those few remaining show us what heroism is and why life is worth fighting.

Or, y'know... people can shoot bullets through time. (Speaking of which... wouldn't it have made more sense if Batman's bullet was the one that killed Orion?)
 
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I am pretty much convinced that Morrison sucks. FC is a great idea if it were being done better (and more on time which isn't really GM's fault).

First off, he tries too hard. Sometimes his stories are just impossible to follow and don't always make sense. When I finished reading this issue my first thought was "what?" Maybe it will better when I read them all together without the huge delays between issues.

Second, didn't he write RIP? I didn't read it but I don't think it left off leading into Batmans appearance in FC. Maybe I am wrong, like I said, didn't read it. I'd like to hear from someone who read both.

I agree with Bass 100% on the use of Batman in this series and this issue in particular. Terrible.
 
Bass said:
Or, y'know... people can shoot bullets through time. (Speaking of which... wouldn't it have made more sense if Batman's bullet was the one that killed Orion?)
Click to expand...

Hey Maybe we find out that's what happened.

good idea btw bass, DC or Marvel should really let you be editor etc.

Think the justice league one would be good for a video game. You get to choose your own story and replay it different ways.
 
Bass said:
I read #6.

This is stupidly done.

Batman's entire sequence, which is supposed to have heft, feels completely out of place. It might be because he shows up on page 26 of the issue. And the last time we saw him waaaaas... issue 2? Batman is a bit part in this series. His big 'scene' just feels tacked on.
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Point. But I think what Morrison was going for was the fact that it's Batman, who should be an iconic enough figure for the scene to take place. And in the last two Batman comics, they have dealt with what happened between Batman in Issue 2 and Batman in issue 6, which was pretty darn cool. This, of course, brings up the argument that everything should have been in the same comic, and you shouldn't have to read other comics to get what's going on in the main story.

Same for Superman's sudden appearance.
Click to expand...

I thought his reappearance was good, though his laying down of uber-death seemed alittle out of place.

I kinda like a bunch of elements about this series, but Morrison is not juggling the characters properly. I have no idea who these Japanese heroes are, and Morrison is not making me want to know. And they also appear to be almost incoherent. You've got the Flashes and the stuff on the watchtower and blah blah blah blah blah. The big emotional payoff in this issue had none because Morrison forgot to put the character in the bloody comic.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I kinda think the Japanese heroes will eventually become the New New Gods, but they have zero development that I simply don't care. Along with Sonny Sumo.

And why do we care about Black Racer?

No one knows.

Much like Manhunter's 'death'. Or the Green Lanterns or the Monitors... none of whom are in this issue.
Click to expand...

False.

Green lanterns are trying to get to Earth, but something is blocking them.
The Monitor is somewhere with Metron, trying to figure something out. These both were one page or two page splashes. But there in the story

I do like the idea of them abandoning the current DCU because it's so poopy and seeking refuge in another. That is a smart idea for a retcon.

Five Ways to Refocus Final Crisis so it makes sense!
Click to expand...

It's a good idea. But you just forsaked all your friends to do it.

1) JUSTICE LEAGUE - Focus on the core League; Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (not the Corps), and Flash (not Barry, Jay and the rest). In each issue the forces of Darkseid claim one of the big seven. #1 no one is lost. But from #2-6, one member of the League is lost until we get to #7 with the last member of the League having to deal with the rest. The climax would be the last member of the League not only defeating which League members get 'Seided (since one or two might die), but also Darkseid and the New Gods and humanity and kinda the whole idea of anti-life. The series is radically different depending on who's left standing. Superman's last stand is going to be significantly different to Batman's or Wonder Woman's. The idea is that the entire story is through these key six characters and the story is this terrible shredding of that team.
Click to expand...

I see what you are going for here, but I don't think it could work as a Final Crisis of sorts. This could have been a mini series along with Final Crisis, but it doesn't seem like it could tell the Earth's story through only the JL's eyes.

2) MISTER MIRACLE - The New Gods are incarnated in human hosts. As a huge, almost incomprehensible superhero war is waged in the background, the Justice League versus Darkseid's forces, the series uses that backdrop to tell the tale of Mister Miracle as he fights to save this world and restore an old one. Consider Mister Miracle as Frodo and the Justice League as the three hunters and you get what I mean.
Click to expand...

I actually have no idea what you are trying to get across here. Mister Miracle is traveling throughout the world trying to save it? While it could be good, I don't see how it is different than what he is doing now.

3) THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES - The first issue is primarily set in their time, where we see how the DCU heroes are legends here. All in the background of their lives. They then go back in time to stop Darkseid. They feel that it's important, that they have to, or some bull**** reason. Doesn't matter. Point is: they go back in time to stop Darkseid without anyone knowing. And inadvertently begin the end of the world. It all goes wrong. Maybe Darkseid engineered it. It ends with the Legion realising the only way to save the present is to sacrifice their future. This could kinda work with the Montiors too.
Click to expand...

Time travel hurts my head, but I always like ideas that have twist endings like this one would.

4) LEX LUTHOR - Flip the whole concept over. Lex leads a supervillain team against Darkseid and an anti-life Justice League. Some villains think they can make a deal with the devil. Who can trust who on the team? A dozen premiere top supervillains slowly being whittled down as they try to save the world. Luthor - he bows to no one. Ra's Al Ghul - big on the environment. Ares - Darkseid is a rival god; Ares likes to fight, Ares' wants to fight this fight. Prometheus - because his Ghost house is their safe zone which makes it all the worse as he'd betray the villains and that would be awesome. Deathstroke - the tag-team of Prometheus and Deathstroke that turns in a duel to the death would be so much fun. Doomsday - more a weapon than a member, that Luthor has to use carefully. Gorilla Grodd - anti-life versus his superior intellect and mind control; the result is Grodd gets owned. Mirror Master - a very likeable villain that can make the team more likeable, plus it'll be sad when he gets anti-lifed. T.O. Morrow - When they get a hold of some New God tech, this guy tries to reverse engineer it into a God-Weapon they can use against them, but be careful, for those who stare into the abyss sometimes have the abyss stare into them...
Click to expand...

He's doing that in Final Crisis 6. With a team of supervillians. Exceot he has Doctor Sivana (the Shazam professor guy there) instead of T.O.Morrow.

No Joker on this team as that would probably suck. And no Superboy Prime as he's rubbish. And no Black Adam until he gets a personality that isn't Namor (or vice-versa).
Click to expand...

Agreed

5) THE LOSERS - By the end of #2, there's like, maybe, 5 people who aren't 'Seided. And they're all rubbish. Jimmy Olsen, Bulleteer, Booster Gold (but not Skeets - he got hit by the internet's anti-life upload), Weather Wizard (because he's a villain, but his powers don't work because his wand is kinda broken, and because he had a power that could solve global warming and used it to rob banks and he'd suck so much), and choose your own 5th guy. And you have five (or four) losers because these are precisely the type of heroes you want facing a villain who conquers galaxies by depressing them. So the group fighting this fight have low self-esteem and are the LAST people you'd expect to able to fight an army with a mathematical proof that states "life isn't worth living". And each character reacts differently to it: Jimmy Olsen feels helpless but is inspired to heroism by Superman. Bulleteer doesn't want to fight or be a hero, she wants to give up. Booster Gold is completely convinced that he's a hero and it'll all work out, but as the evidence mounts that becomes a reckless self-denial. And Weather Wizard thinks he's important, only to discover he's kinda messed up his life. He's done the whole 'living' bit wrong. I don't know which of them make it out alive, maybe none do. Maybe the all do. But it would be awesome to see them do it. Maybe it's a 300 type thing; they all die, but their deaths inspire others to fight anti-life.
Click to expand...

That could work too.

The point of all this: Morrison did this bizarre epic focusing on dozens and dozens of characters and alien races and galaxies and universes and time periods, and the major players of his title end up being sidelined, so that any deaths, corruptions, and returns just do not have any real impact. Instead, you pick a small group of characters, and set them up against a world that is rapidly turning into hell. As the onslaught of anti-life occurs, and each one is picked off one by one, those few remaining show us what heroism is and why life is worth fighting.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean, but to do that would require alot of issues, or alot of minis to run alongside the main. The problem then becomes too many minis to buy to read the main. This would bring us back to the problem that the events cost too much money.

Or, y'know... people can shoot bullets through time. (Speaking of which... wouldn't it have made more sense if Batman's bullet was the one that killed Orion?)
Click to expand...

It was.
 
Ultimate Houde said:
Point. But I think what Morrison was going for was the fact that it's Batman, who should be an iconic enough figure for the scene to take place. And in the last two Batman comics, they have dealt with what happened between Batman in Issue 2 and Batman in issue 6, which was pretty darn cool. This, of course, brings up the argument that everything should have been in the same comic, and you shouldn't have to read other comics to get what's going on in the main story.
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That's my thinking. See, I've not read RIP or Batman issues. And the issue doesn't say "read these issues!" So I don't know what the hell is going on. And I should. No other storytelling medium in the world would work this way.

Ultimate Houde said:
I thought his reappearance was good, though his laying down of uber-death seemed alittle out of place.
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Yeah. He kinda just... kills everything doesn't he?

Ultimate Houde said:
Agreed. I kinda think the Japanese heroes will eventually become the New New Gods, but they have zero development that I simply don't care. Along with Sonny Sumo.

And why do we care about Black Racer?

No one knows.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Ultimate Houde said:
False.

Green lanterns are trying to get to Earth, but something is blocking them.
The Monitor is somewhere with Metron, trying to figure something out. These both were one page or two page splashes. But there in the story
Click to expand...

You are correct. They are both in the story. I was so confused I didn't notice the three panels they each share. Silly Morrison. As for the GLs, I thought they couldn't get near Earth because Darkseid is essentially a living black hole (which I think is awesome). Or something. And I think Metron and n00b-Monitor are trying to build a new earth or something? **** if I know.

Ultimate Houde said:
I see what you are going for here, but I don't think it could work as a Final Crisis of sorts. This could have been a mini series along with Final Crisis, but it doesn't seem like it could tell the Earth's story through only the JL's eyes.
Click to expand...

Yes you can. Morrison did it at the end of his JLA arc. Big, epic story, with lots of background characters, told primarily through the main seven. The ending of the Cadmus arc in JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED did a whole "Brainiac will take over the world" story but only through the main seven. The entire POINT of the Justice League is to tell these kinds of stories every week and through their eyes. The point is not to exclude non-JLA characters, but to understand that they're the 'protagonist' whom the audience experiences the story through.

Ultimate Houde said:
I actually have no idea what you are trying to get across here. Mister Miracle is traveling throughout the world trying to save it? While it could be good, I don't see how it is different than what he is doing now.
Click to expand...

The major difference is that it's all about Mister Miracle. It's all about the focus of the mini so that we don't do things like, "I don't know who Black Racer is or why he's important" and "Where's Batman? What's going on?" due to a deluge of characters everywhere.

Ultimate Houde said:
He's doing that in Final Crisis 6. With a team of supervillians. Exceot he has Doctor Sivana (the Shazam professor guy there) instead of T.O.Morrow.
Click to expand...

Again - it's two pages. And it's not really been mentioned much before. I'm saying that they should be the absolute main focus of the title. There are so many characters in this thing... Frankenstein got as much screen time in the last issue as Superman did here. It's just not making much emotional sense.

Ultimate Houde said:
I see what you mean, but to do that would require alot of issues, or alot of minis to run alongside the main. The problem then becomes too many minis to buy to read the main. This would bring us back to the problem that the events cost too much money.
Click to expand...

Again, I disagree.

TERRA OBSCURA is a 6-issue mini which does a big, epic crossover with dozens of characters and these are characters who barely appeared in two issues of Tom Strong. There are no tie-ins. No minis. Just six issues and a epic crossover with the world at stake. And it has a sequel. They're ****ing awesome and if Peter Hogan and Alan Moore can do all that in 6-issues with characters you've never heard of, I'd expect at least that much coherence from a series which has Superman and Batman fighting Darkseid.

Ultimate Houde said:
It was.
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No it wasn't. It 'killed' (I assume so since apparently there's a threat greater than Darkseid about to happen - blech) Darkseid. It didn't travel back in time and kill Orion. It should've but it didn't.
 
Bass said:
That's my thinking. See, I've not read RIP or Batman issues. And the issue doesn't say "read these issues!" So I don't know what the hell is going on. And I should. No other storytelling medium in the world would work this way.
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I think he attempted to bite off too much than he could chew, that's why it's bleed into so many other comics.

Then again, for all we know editorial could have made him tell the story this way, to tie it into other books.

Yeah. He kinda just... kills everything doesn't he?
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Yup.

You are correct. They are both in the story. I was so confused I didn't notice the three panels they each share. Silly Morrison. As for the GLs, I thought they couldn't get near Earth because Darkseid is essentially a living black hole (which I think is awesome). Or something. And I think Metron and n00b-Monitor are trying to build a new earth or something? **** if I know.
Click to expand...

I wonder if anyone knows.

Yes you can. Morrison did it at the end of his JLA arc. Big, epic story, with lots of background characters, told primarily through the main seven. The ending of the Cadmus arc in JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED did a whole "Brainiac will take over the world" story but only through the main seven. The entire POINT of the Justice League is to tell these kinds of stories every week and through their eyes. The point is not to exclude non-JLA characters, but to understand that they're the 'protagonist' whom the audience experiences the story through.
Click to expand...

When you put it that way, then yes, but the way you explained it before, it simply didn't click with me.

The major difference is that it's all about Mister Miracle. It's all about the focus of the mini so that we don't do things like, "I don't know who Black Racer is or why he's important" and "Where's Batman? What's going on?" due to a deluge of characters everywhere.

Again - it's two pages. And it's not really been mentioned much before. I'm saying that they should be the absolute main focus of the title. There are so many characters in this thing... Frankenstein got as much screen time in the last issue as Superman did here. It's just not making much emotional sense.
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I think we both can agree that the story, currently, is way too fragmented. Maybe Morrison wanted it this way, to make people confused, since the heroes are confused as to what's going on. I don't know, but it's not working out for this story.

TERRA OBSCURA is a 6-issue mini which does a big, epic crossover with dozens of characters and these are characters who barely appeared in two issues of Tom Strong. There are no tie-ins. No minis. Just six issues and a epic crossover with the world at stake. And it has a sequel. They're ****ing awesome and if Peter Hogan and Alan Moore can do all that in 6-issues with characters you've never heard of, I'd expect at least that much coherence from a series which has Superman and Batman fighting Darkseid.
Click to expand...

Never heard of the story. If you know of where I could read it, I would like too so I know what it is about.

No it wasn't. It 'killed' (I assume so since apparently there's a threat greater than Darkseid about to happen - blech) Darkseid. It didn't travel back in time and kill Orion. It should've but it didn't.
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It's a bullet fired through time, isn't it? Why can't it be shoot at a later date backwards in time?
 
Ultimate Houde said:
Never heard of the story. If you know of where I could read it, I would like too so I know what it is about.

It's a bullet fired through time, isn't it? Why can't it be shoot at a later date backwards in time?
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Terra Obscura you could pick up at your LCS. Both should be in TPB. Also, maybe torrent?

As for the bullet - the bullet was fired from some point in the future back in time and killed Orion (maybe, Morrison isn't making any ****ing sense). Batman picked up the bullet and then shot Darkseid. It didn't go back in time. It just shot Darkseid. At some point it's supposed to go back in time... or something. I don't know WHEN the bullet is shot to kill Orion. Which is precisely why if Batman had shot Orion it would've made sense. But it didn't happen that way and now I don't know when Orion got shot. Nothing makes sense.

Oh yeah, and Batman isn't dead. He says "Gotcha" which I'm sure we're supposed to think means, "I understand" but really means "I've outplayed you" and the Omega Sanction, since it's a VR anti-life thing, he's already worked out how to get out of.

Or something.

Superman died for 12 months. I'd be surprised if Batman lasted that long.
 
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Ultimate Houde said:
It was good in how it showed how Batman got out of the trap he was put in Issue 2
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Yeh. I saw some (most) of the highlights reading some reviews of it. Evil gods using Clayface to...I don't know, wipe Bats mind in order to somehow end up creating evil clones of Batman.

I don't know.

I guess I can probably get by knowing what happened without putting myself through reading it. :D
 
Last Rites was really good. A whole overview of Batman's career on top of the Final Crisis stuff. I don't know why you wouldn't want to read.

Oh, and that's not Clayface.
 
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