Civil War series discussion (spoilers)

How would you rate Civil War?


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Tony's coming across as an absolutist. He believes absolutely that he's made the right decision. As a result, he comes across with as a zealot. It not out of fanatical loyality to any group, but he's just as severe and intense.

If the rebels win this war, I think were going to end up seeing Reed and Tony go through personal crisis over the following year or two.
 
MaxwellSmart said:
Tony's coming across as an absolutist. He believes absolutely that he's made the right decision. As a result, he comes across with as a zealot. It not out of fanatical loyality to any group, but he's just as severe and intense.
Yes, agreed. But why should that be considered so out of character, for him? It makes perfect sense, actually. The guy is a filthy rich businessman who is bankrolling an influential super-team. His reading of the public sentiment -- the view of the average "person on the street" -- is filtered through commissioned studies, and cocktail party hearsay, and biased media coverage. He's all but insulated from the reality of a street-level C-lister, who has more to lose by registering as a super-powered individual, and giving up his secret identity.

Possible WATCHMEN spoilers -->
For now, he's the Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias of this story, and I have no problem with him in that role.
 
i just dont get iron man turning on cap so fast. these are old school avengers here, long history together, and he's just gonna decide, out of the blue to turn on cap?
If something you don't want is going to be inevitable, anyway, why not get in on the ground floor where you can influence some of its policies to be a little less harsh or push it in the direction you want it to go?

Also, what happens when the government finds out Tony Stark is Iron Man and puts him on trial for lying under oath to a congressional hearing?

In an issue of eXiles I just read, the heroes visited a world where they already had a hero registration act and the Avengers went out and killed all the non-registered metahumans. That was the KING HYPERION storyline, I think.
 
Rorschach said:
i just dont get iron man turning on cap so fast. these are old school avengers here, long history together, and he's just gonna decide, out of the blue to turn on cap?

He's being manipulated. Mind control. Notice that he and the other smartest man in the world (Reed) are for the registration. If you were setting up something like that and knew you might have to resort to mind control to accomplish it, wouldn't you do the same? Reed has already had a type of mind control recently with the whole Sentry thing in New Avengers. He's weak.

They would also want Cap for the symbolism, but he's too strong for that. Especially with Millar writing him.

That's my current theory.
 
E said:
Notice that he and the other smartest man in the world (Reed) are for the registration.
Notice that he and the other smartest man in the world (Reed) live comfortably protected existences, in very expensive high-rise skyscrapers, largely removed from the on-the-ground reprecussions of the proposed Registration.

I humbly disagree -- I don't think there's any mind control going on here, in the sense of an external force (political/institutional OR supernatural).

It's a case of two very smart -- but also somewhat sheltered and gilded -- individuals half-heartedly agreeing with a risky, distateful proposal that seems unavoidable, given the present circumstances.
 
You guys sound as if you think Tony is just going to go for Cap's throat right away. I'm sure there is going to be a serious attempt for diplomacy. Here is how it will go:

*4 pages of this:*

Iron Man: C'mon, seriously.

Cap: No.

Iron Man: Reason.

Cap: Rebuttal.

Iron Man: 2nd Reason.

Cap: 2nd Rebuttal.

Iron Man: I'll totally fight you!

Cap: I'll totally win.

Then it will be fighting.


And you guys act that Tony is going to try to kill Cap. If Tony wins that fight, he is simply going to bring him in, I doubt any of these characters are going to seriously be out for blood with one another.
 
Ultimate Warrior said:
Issues? I thought that there where only one issue? :?

There was only one Illuminati issue.

And this is what I brought up in my post - Marvel has said that you'll only need to read the main miniseries to understand events, but it's already not true. You really need to have read all three prequel issues (Illuminati and both ASM issues) to truly understand some of the character's POV.

Later in the month the tie-in issues start to kick in, and it will be interesting to see what, if any, "new" Civil War info is in the minis.
 
J. Agamemnon said:
I think you'll have to read every tie-in. NP for me. i love them all.

Not counting the main Civil War and Frontline issues, there are almost 70 tie-in issues. $210, much of that concerning characters I'm not really interested in, just to keep up on the main Civil War story. I have real reservations about that.
 
I would like to rent a room

Do you have reservations?

Only about the Potato Salad!!!

hahahahahah
hahahahahah


it's not like your paying all that money up front. But I understand where your coming from. I have a feeling Hulk might come back late in the series.

I also think once the heroes find out about the Illuminati, it will change views on the people involved. I'm thinking namor or Strange will spill the beans.
 
Last edited:
I have a question -- what is the status of PULSE (the fictional Bugle supplement, not the cancelled series itself)?

I ask this because I'm baffled why Kat Farrell is not being used as the protagonist for Frontline, since she's such an obvious choice for the role. Or Urich, for that matter.
 
J. Agamemnon said:
I would like to rent a room

Do you have reservations?

Only about the Potato Salad!!!
I think that joke is from a Marx Brothers movie, circa 1930, or maybe a Henny Youngman vaudeville stand-up routine - and it wasn't that funny THEN. Yes, I am a critic, thank you.

J. Agamemnon said:
it's not like your paying all that money up front. But I understand where your coming from. I have a feeling Hulk might come back late in the series.

I also think once the heroes find out about the Illuminati, it will change views on the people involved. I'm thinking namor or Strange will spill the beans.

What does it matter if you pay the money up front or over the long term? It's still what it'll cost. I pick up waaaaay too many comics a week to add one just for a scene or two that MIGHT have some info that is useful to understanding the Civil War mini.

DCP IS my friend....
 
What is DCP? I already sd I understood where you're coming from b/c I have like 10 subscriptions and CW isn't even one of them. And BTW....Marx Brothers are awesome and i could care less what you do for a living.
 
J. Agamemnon said:
What is DCP? I already sd I understood where you're coming from b/c I have like 10 subscriptions
DCP is a comics download group. I don't normally download "new" comics that I haven't bought, but I am really tempted for this. It's a "dilemma that's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum" for me.

J. Agamemnon said:
And BTW....Marx Brothers are awesome and i could care less what you do for a living.

Lol, the "critic" thing is the rest of the comedy routine - Groucho says "tough crowd, everyone's a critic" and then a well-known play/movie critic stands up and says "Yes, I am a critic." Sorry for the obscure reference.
 
HAHAHAHAHA...that's cocky. yeah I love that show, haven't seen it since I was like 19.

I shot an elephant in my pajamas. What an elephant was doing in my pajamas I'll never know.


Sorry about the rudeness, I just take things literally like you're gonna attack me.

Back to topic; Do you think Hulk will make an appearance?
 
Well, I downloaded this issue.

To be honest, it's not really that bad. It's okay. It's definately not an "event".

There are two main problems that I felt #1 had: Rhyo expressed one - without the prequel issues, this story has an unbelievably poor beginning. This story, like Infinite Crisis, is not meant for new readers. It is completely meant for an audience that is already picking up comics set in this universe, as well as picking up the tie-ins.

The reason I find this somewhat horrific is this - Marvel is pushing this title as the best thing that they are producing now, in order to entice a new audience and at the same time, raising the price and committment in order to buy the story. The problem with this is that if the beginning of story is not contained within this so-called first issue and it becomes apparent that not only is it unreadable and somewhat shallow and fanboyish, but that in fact, you have to buy more comics that aren't part of the main title to understand it, this new audience will think this is the best the comics world can produce and it's not worth it's price or the effort involved in picking it up and the short term boost in sales for the first few issues result in a longer drought.

This is self-destruction. What's worse is it's coming from a writer who made a name for himself helming one of the major Ultimate projects designed specifically to cater to new audiences independent of other titles.

It's not that you can't understand Civil War #1 - it's simply that the story moves at a pace where you are assumed to know all the basics, which character is which, and that this Civil War thing was just about to happen. The start of the story is the Nitro scene. But the story begins long before it, while Civil War doesn't.

To use some storytelling terminology - the Nitro scene is the "inciting incident". This is the scene which radically upsets the balance of life, for good or ill. For example, this is the murder in a murder mystery, the debut of the super-villain in any superh-hero story, the scene where boy meets girl in any romantic story, etc. However, the inciting incident can be the first scene of a story, or generally, anywhere within the first quarter of the telling. The idea is that one only reveals the inciting incident when the moment is "ripe". However, the longer the incident is delayed, the greater the risk of boredom, so sub-plots are used to keep audience interest.

To give you an example - "The Fugitive" begins with its Inciting Incident, whereas every Indiana Jones and James Bond begins with a sequence that is not related to the main plot, and keeps us exicted while we wait for the Inciting Incident of the main villain of this year's flick. Consider The Lord of the Rings. The inciting incident is Frodo picks up the One Ring. Now look at when that scene happens. 40 minutes into the film. Why? Because in order for Frodo picking up the One Ring to mean anything, we have to know who Frodo is, what the One Ring is, and why finding it in the Shire by a Hobbit is so important. So for 40 minutes we are treated to a huge epic war by Sauron, the loss of the One Ring to Isildur, Isildur's death, Gollum and Bilbo finding the One Ring, and then, the One Ring isn't seen until Bilbo puts it on because in that time we have a big sub-plot: "Bilbo Baggins leaves the Shire".

So, my point is, that the story can start long after the story begins - as is appropriate. By that rule of thumb, the inciting incident could've occurred anywhere from #1 page 1 to around halfway through #2 (give or take) so as to make this scene mean something.

As it is, the kids being killed is a fine way to begin - it definately means something; a villainous tragedy. But the problem is this: The Nitro scene, without any build-up, makes the series look like it's about finding and getting Nitro, the bad-guy. But suddenly, this entire series says that the meaning of this scene isn't that Nitro's a super-villain, but whether superhuman registration is required. If you don't read the prequels, this is sorely lacking.

Some build-up that if superheroes were to **** up would result in badness for all superheroes inside Civil War (plenty is done outside the title) would've been welcome, I think.

The second problem is linked to the first. Due to a lack of set-up in the issue, the issue is actually the same scene repeated ad infinitum for several pages without much progression or development, save in the last pages.

The comic, post-Nitro is this: "Oh my God. Kids died because those superheroes weren't trained. Should we be registered with the government? This is going to get bad."

Every scene is this. No matter who is in it. Every scene is several characters talking about this situation with the resolution of, "Things are going to be bad." This isn't progression of story. This is redundant repetition, designed to show off a fantastic cast (who, when sitting around talking about registration, I felt looked unbelievably ridiculous), however, there is little point in showing off a cast in which everyone acts the same: Every character regardless if they are for or against registration, thinks things are going to get bad. A cast should have a polarised set of reactions to a situation, not six of one and half a dozen of another, all repeating the same ominous portents.

Ominous portents so thickly laid on that I realised the only reason one would lay it on so thick is to hide the house of cards its built on.

Again, the thickness of this dire nature of the crossover is required to get new readers up to speed because the work wasn't done prior to the inciting incident to set up just how bad this Nitro scene is. See what I mean? By not setting up Nitro effectively in Civil War, it requires Millar to suddenly do a ton of packpeddling to retroactively put meaning into a scene that should've already had it.

So these are my two main problems - This comic is two scenes, slapped together with ill-held repetition, which is a shame because it's not really that bad, it just feels... amateurish. It feels like fan-fiction.

It's not really that bad, but it's nothing really amazing either.

And I don't need to discuss whether registration is good or bad. The metaphor is handled adeptly, but it lacks any real meaning. The metaphor doesn't really hold up that well in my eyes, but it is handled well. The bizarre superphobia is very well handled, as is the government's response. Also, Iron Man choosing to become a figurehead for representation in order to counterbalance Cap makes sense.

So, it's well-thought out indeed and it's not bad.

But it's not well told, I think.

I have to say, I thought it was a damn sight better than Infinite Crisis. But I'm going to give IC another chance.
 

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