Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I liked it. I wish JG Jones would draw the whole thing, but apparently there will be Shane Davis fill-ins.

Anyway, I'm a huge DC fan and read about everything by them, so yeah.

I'm assuming black guy at the end is J'onn somehow.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I really like it so far... Don't know what everyone is complaining about... But even the unclear bits are sure to get some clarification.

As for J'onn's death? I don't care. They haven't used the character well since the original Morrison JLA... If this leads to a rebirth in the series, or even a year or two from now, at least we'll probably get something better than the Martian Manhunter we've been seeing in action for the last few years.

And the Art is fantastic. Such a great week for comics.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I really like it so far... Don't know what everyone is complaining about... But even the unclear bits are sure to get some clarification.

As for J'onn's death? I don't care. They haven't used the character well since the original Morrison JLA... If this leads to a rebirth in the series, or even a year or two from now, at least we'll probably get something better than the Martian Manhunter we've been seeing in action for the last few years.

And the Art is fantastic. Such a great week for comics.

Agreed. This is way, way, way better than people are giving it credit for. More on this later.

But... the way it's treated in the pages... J'onn could've been VIBE. I mean, he's just brought in and killed, then at the end, some heroes say they're upset. It could've been anyone. The only reason it matters at all is because it's J'onn and it's out of the blue. If it wasn't J'onn no one would care. That's why it's shock. Instead of spending some of the issue creating or showcasing a character to make us care, Morrison just kills off a character someone else has been writing because he can. :/

You see, I gotta disagree. It's not shock at all. There's already a gravity to the character. If you have a basic familiarity with the character, you know that he has importance as a hero. And if not, you can still infer, given the exchanges between Libra and the Society, that there's an importance to the character. The death has impact because of how brazen it is. He wasn't killed in the heat of battle. His death wasn't a mistake taken too far like in the case of Bart Allen. He was incapacitated and executed. It's the difference between a soldier being gunned down in a heated firefight, and a soldier being bound and executed on rolling film. He was made an example of for the whole superhero community. We're coming for you. We aren't interested in bank heists or world domination. Not right now at least. What we're interested in is combining our forces and practicality and methodically tracking every single one of you down to murder. The weight of the character is there, and the impact of it isn't necessarily that it's the Martian Manhunter. It's the message that it sends. They're playing a different kind of ball.

And no one else was really writing the character. Plus, we know there's more to it than that. Morrison's been very explicit in the fact that there's a lot more to it than just death. I doubt the Martian Manhunter's story is over. More likely, the course of the story will be where we showcase what makes the character important. The story after his death will mold him back into an interesting and profitable character.

We need to spend less time nitpicking "Oh, that's bull****. Look at the impact it has on other (sometime non-existent) books!" and more time looking at the story. I hate this obsession so many fans have (and I'm not necessarily calling you out here, Bass, because you actually seem to be a pretty well-informed reader. And you actually made some snarky marks about this earlier on in the thread) with continuity. A character was killed off in part one of a seven part story. Let the story speak for itself and spend less time focusing on what it means for other (i.e. hypothetical) books.

 

[thee great one]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Zombipanda is my hero.

 

[Ninja4peace]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Yeah, they'll def be more to the Martian Manhunter death. The issue generally I thought was a bit meh...and the fact that superman spent a whole 8 issue mini with the new gods but doesn't seem to know what's going on here annoyed me. So is that kamandi at the end (blond)? and anthro at the start and maybe with dreads at the end, those bits were a bit confusing but I'm sure there's a plan. I'm pretty sure it was the monitor who wakes up from the dream at the end, the hair is exactly the same.

Oh and metron at the start? Is that JG Jones drawing normal metron who just looks really cool or is like a reborn metron? That and the darkside club probably ties in with the mr miracle mini morrison wrote, I need to go back and understand that.

I think my favourite bit was Dr light and Mirror master working together, and commenting about how obvious this was it was a surprise no one had teamed them up before.

 

[Friday]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Yeah, they'll def be more to the Martian Manhunter death. The issue generally I thought was a bit meh...and the fact that superman spent a whole 8 issue mini with the new gods but doesn't seem to know what's going on here annoyed me. So is that kamandi at the end (blond)? and anthro at the start and maybe with dreads at the end, those bits were a bit confusing but I'm sure there's a plan. I'm pretty sure it was the monitor who wakes up from the dream at the end, the hair is exactly the same.

Oh and metron at the start? Is that JG Jones drawing normal metron who just looks really cool or is like a reborn metron? That and the darkside club probably ties in with the mr miracle mini morrison wrote, I need to go back and understand that.

I think my favourite bit was Dr light and Mirror master working together, and commenting about how obvious this was it was a surprise no one had teamed them up before.

I assumed it was Kamandi.

So far this is nothing special. The art is nice but it still just feels like Cliff Notes of the individual books. The only scene that had any life to it was Libra and the society and it feel apart for me when they brought the Martian Manhunter out. And the Twilight of the Gods references? Its all a little heavy handed. Especially Turpin being our prospective character instead of Constantine.

I guess I'm just a bit disappointed. I was really hoping to be blown away. I hope it gets better.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

It's just the first issue... Just reading the first issue of Seven Soldiers wasn't brilliant, it simply falls into place as the story comes together. I have lots of faith in Morrison and what he can do with this mythology.

 

[mike3717]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Especially Turpin being our prospective character instead of Constantine.

It would have been cooler if it was Constantine. But from what I understand DC has taken Vertigo titles out of mainstream DC continuity. (unless I am wrong ) Which is odd since all the heavy hitters in the DCU have encountered Constantine (and Swamp Thing) already. Also they seem to have left SOME bits of Vertigo continuity intact since Brave and the Bold spent issues pursuing the book of Destiny.

All in all I thought this was a good set up issue and promises some good things to come down the road.

I agree that Superman apparently forgetting that he knows all about what is hapening with the New Gods is a bit frustrating. But besides that, it was good.

 

[Ninja4peace]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

It's just the first issue... Just reading the first issue of Seven Soldiers wasn't brilliant, it simply falls into place as the story comes together. I have lots of faith in Morrison and what he can do with this mythology.

That's a point, but this is still unlike anything morrison has written before, so it could fall flat - especially if it relies too much on the other minis and countdown.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If the first issue proves anything, I think its that this won't be relying on countdown.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If the first issue proves anything, I think its that this won't be relying on countdown.

That's what I've been telling my friends. I think everyone is so wrapped in continuity that they won't let slide what happened in countdown and letting it affect what they think about Final Crisis. I don't think there's been a Grant Morrison story I didn't like and I'm taking that track record with me into Final Crisis.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If the first issue proves anything, I think its that this won't be relying on countdown.

I think it proved that Countdown did a really lousy job, not only of telling a story, but of reaching the end points to correctly set Crisis up. I think the deeper we get into Final Crisis, the more we'll see how things should have ended up in Countdown.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Apparently Final Crisis was written before Countdown, so I don't completely blame Morrison for the continuity mistakes, but the fact that it ties together so poorly still gives FC some points off since a few minor rewrites could have corrected the most major problems.

Like a single line about Superman actually knowing about the New Gods dying and not being shocked to hear the news.

 

[mike3717]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If the first issue proves anything, I think its that this won't be relying on countdown.

Which means there is hope that it won't suck.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Apparently Final Crisis was written before Countdown, so I don't completely blame Morrison for the continuity mistakes, but the fact that it ties together so poorly still gives FC some points off since a few minor rewrites could have corrected the most major problems.

Like a single line about Superman actually knowing about the New Gods dying and not being shocked to hear the news.

Doesn't even remotely bother me... If i was Morrison I would have ignored it all too. Sometimes you have to fudge continuity a little to make things flow, its only when you go a step further and ignore it that there's a problem.

I just read this for the fifth or sixth time today, and i am becoming more sure of the fact that I really like this series.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Doesn't even remotely bother me... If i was Morrison I would have ignored it all too. Sometimes you have to fudge continuity a little to make things flow, its only when you go a step further and ignore it that there's a problem.

I just read this for the fifth or sixth time today, and i am becoming more sure of the fact that I really like this series.

It bothers that they can't get continuity right when they already know how the series has to end (Countdown). Continuity is very important, and Morrison knowingly ignored it then he would be wrong to do so.

But since he didn't, and the people who did Countdown/Death of the New Gods didn't tie everything together right, I don't blame Morrison. I actually think he handles continuity well.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Continuity is very important,

It is?

and Morrison knowingly ignored it then he would be wrong to do so.

Damn him! Trying to tell a good story is no excuse to ignore continuity!

But since he didn't, and the people who did Countdown/Death of the New Gods didn't tie everything together right, I don't blame Morrison. I actually think he handles continuity well.

Whew, that's a relief. For a second there I was worried that Grant Morrison was a terrible writer.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

It is?

Yes.

Damn him! Trying to tell a good story is no excuse to ignore continuity!

It's not a good story for those characters if you need to ignore continuity for it to work. If it's such a good story it has to be told, it could be an Elseworlds. Otherwise there's tons of great stories that don't contradict anything.

Whew, that's a relief. For a second there I was worried that Grant Morrison was a terrible writer.

He's just not good with endings.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Zombipanda needs to less insulting to people who are actually trying to have a discussion about the book.

Like I said early in this thread, this is teeming with lots of DC lore that I don't recognize, but it's based on the Mister Miracle mini that I really enjoyed, so I will be giving it a chance, I just hope it begins to open itself up more to not heavy on DC lore readers.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Yes.

Let me provide you with an equation.

The Importance of Continuity = The Value of that Continuity / The Value of the Contradictory Story

It's not a good story for those characters if you need to ignore continuity for it to work. If it's such a good story it has to be told, it could be an Elseworlds. Otherwise there's tons of great stories that don't contradict anything.

Or the continuity that's only one month old could be an Elseworlds. You're saying that crappy stories which follow the continuity rightly are more important than good stories that dodge the continuity of crappy stories? If it's an Elseworlds, then that closes the possibility of potentially exceptional growth for the characters. That's an asinine perspective.

He's just not good with endings.

I'd say it's more like, he's not good at resolving his high concepts. It's not that he's a bad writer, it's just that sometimes the concepts are too big for the finales he provides.

Zombipanda needs to less insulting to people who are actually trying to have a discussion about the book.

I'm not being insulting. I'm just having an argument. We're all grown-ups here. I think we can talk about these stories without anyone getting genuinely offended. Because, y'know, they're just stories.

Like I said early in this thread, this is teeming with lots of DC lore that I don't recognize, but it's based on the Mister Miracle mini that I really enjoyed, so I will be giving it a chance, I just hope it begins to open itself up more to not heavy on DC lore readers.

See, that's something I can agree with you on.