Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

Ultimate Houde said:
Zombipanda needs to less insulting to people who are actually trying to have a discussion about the book.

Like I said early in this thread, this is teeming with lots of DC lore that I don't recognize, but it's based on the Mister Miracle mini that I really enjoyed, so I will be giving it a chance, I just hope it begins to open itself up more to not heavy on DC lore readers.
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It's heavy on the DC lore, but you don't need to know the specifics of it to enjoy the story. A lot of people are saying it's confusing, but I don't see how, since every single important situation is explained in the book itself.

Zombipanda said:
Let me provide you with an equation.

The Importance of Continuity = The Value of that Continuity / The Value of the Contradictory Story



Or the continuity that's only one month old could be an Elseworlds. You're saying that crappy stories which follow the continuity rightly are more important than good stories that dodge the continuity of crappy stories? If it's an Elseworlds, then that closes the possibility of potentially exceptional growth for the characters. That's an asinine perspective.



I'd say it's more like, he's not good at resolving his high concepts. It's not that he's a bad writer, it's just that sometimes the concepts are too big for the finales he provides.
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Stories could sidestep continuity all they want, but to actively contradict it is a mistake and an insult to long time fans. And if all you're worried about is good stories, then who cares about "potentially exceptional growth for the characters," since as soon as it becomes convenient said growth will just be tossed out anyway. You can't have it both ways.
 
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Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I didn't find the story confusing, it just jumped to alot of different things going on at the same time. I followed them quite easily.

But I know I'm missing the little clues and things that someone who reads DC alot would recognize that I won't necessarily see right off the bat or notice at all. Take Turpin for existence, I had no idea who he was, alittle wikipedia cleared that up, but still, I know I'm missing more subtle things in this.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Joe Kalicki said:
It's heavy on the DC lore, but you don't need to know the specifics of it to enjoy the story. A lot of people are saying it's confusing, but I don't see how, since every single important situation is explained in the book itself.
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See, I agree with Houde, but I agree with Joe here too.

I think Morrison introduces the ideas in a pretty self-explanatory fashion, but there's just so many things to explain that it seems overwhelming. I have the feeling that once you get further into the story, it will become clear that the problem isn't pieces of continuity that you're unaware of, and more that it's just pieces of the story that haven't been explained yet.

All you need to know about the big superheroes are the basics. These are the new vanguard pantheon, the modern gods of the DCU, and that's all the perspective you should need. Hopefully.

Joe Kalicki said:
Stories could sidestep continuity all they want, but to actively contradict it is a mistake and an insult to long time fans. And if all you're worried about is good stories, then who cares about "potentially exceptional growth for the characters," since as soon as it becomes convenient said growth will just be tossed out anyway. You can't have it both ways.
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Yes, you can. It's about being true to the pieces of continuity that are essential to the characters, and then cherry picking the pieces of continuity that aren't necessarily all that important. The history of the comic universe is a buffet table. There's some stuff there that you have to put on your plate, and then there's other stuff that you can pick freely from. Stupid, small pieces of continuity shouldn't have to hobble the storytelling.

By that, I mean, how important is it that Superman was sitting there watching the Darkseid/Orion fight? Did it have a meaningful impact on his character? Did it have a meaningful impact on the proceedings? No. No growth resulted from his inclusion in the scene. We need to be more discriminating in what events we choose to add to our personal continuity.
 
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Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Ultimate Houde said:
I didn't find the story confusing, it just jumped to alot of different things going on at the same time. I followed them quite easily.

But I know I'm missing the little clues and things that someone who reads DC alot would recognize that I won't necessarily see right off the bat or notice at all. Take Turpin for existence, I had no idea who he was, alittle wikipedia cleared that up, but still, I know I'm missing more subtle things in this.
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But you don't need to know who Turpin is to enjoy the story. You're told everything you need, he was on the Metropolis police force and now he's a PI. His past is irrelevent at this point, and when it comes into play (as it probably will since he's a New Gods character), I'm sure it will be detailed in the comic.

Zombipanda said:
See, I agree with Houde, but I agree with Joe here too.

I think Morrison introduces the ideas in a pretty self-explanatory fashion, but there's just so many things to explain that it seems overwhelming. I have the feeling that once you get further into the story, it will become clear that the problem isn't pieces of continuity that you're unaware of, and more that it's just pieces of the story that haven't been explained yet.

All you need to know about the big superheroes are the basics. These are the new vanguard pantheon, the modern gods of the DCU, and that's all the perspective you should need. Hopefully.
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This is what I've bene trying to say for a week now.
 
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Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Joe Kalicki said:
But you don't need to know who Turpin is to enjoy the story. You're told everything you need, he was on the Metropolis police force and now he's a PI. His past is irrelevent at this point, and when it comes into play (as it probably will since he's a New Gods character), I'm sure it will be detailed in the comic.
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Exactly. Turpin's a curmudgeony old cop. The Green Lanterns are an intergalactic space force, with all the process and procedure that entails. Libra's a villain who saw the face of god and came back from it. etc.

Joe Kalicki said:
This is what I've bene trying to say for a week now.
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Hey, me too. ;)
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I usually don't care if a story contradicts another earlier story and I wouldn't care the least in the case of Final Crisis either if it wasn't for one thing; it contradicts the story in a book named Countdown to FINAL CRISIS. The whole story was made to lead up to this book!
And I don't blame the writers, I blame the editors.

And those who say that a good story comes before continuity, OK I can understand that statement but are you saying that you can't write a good story and still stick to continuity? If you have to go against the canon of the universe/book at least do it with a retcon.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Fredrik Martinsson said:
And those who say that a good story comes before continuity, OK I can understand that statement but are you saying that you can't write a good story and still stick to continuity? If you have to go against the canon of the universe/book at least do it with a retcon.
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My point is, the rule of thumb should be to follow continuity, until you reach the point where a contradiction in continuity will better serve the character than the original continuity, at which point, the contradiction becomes continuity, until a new contradiction can properly usurp it. Some continuity has such gravity that contradicting it would completely unthread the character and make them useless. Others (a character showing up in the sidelines of a universally accepted terrible book and not actually doing anything) can be overturned rather easily.

Then again, there are plenty of ways to fix this problem. For instance, Hypertime, or the premise of a metatextual judicial body that governs the constantly unraveling and reraveling threads of the universe.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

thee great one said:
Countdown was horrible and this just helps to pretend it never happened.
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You think morrison did it on purpose? Like to make a bigger distinction between this and Countdown?

how important is it that Superman was sitting there watching the Darkseid/Orion fight? Did it have a meaningful impact on his character? Did it have a meaningful impact on the proceedings? No. No growth resulted from his inclusion in the scene. We need to be more discriminating in what events we choose to add to our personal continuity.
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I really liked that scene in death of new gods. For once Superman is experiencing life like batman does on the justice league. It really emphasised how powerful the new gods are and how pertrified we should all be now the evil gods are coming. I think it must've been pretty humbling for superman, too. (though admittadly it's not as big an event as say his marriage to lois, death, or lex becoming president).
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

So should I just go ahead and get this even without reading Countdown? I mean all I've read of DC lately is JLA, JSA, Batman and the Outsiders, Action Comics and the Flash.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

bluebeast said:
So should I just go ahead and get this even without reading Countdown? I mean all I've read of DC lately is JLA, JSA, Batman and the Outsiders, Action Comics and the Flash.
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Sure thing. Countdown sucks and apparently isn't even needed.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

bluebeast said:
Ok good. Plus, do you know if Salvation Run has anything to do with this?
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I haven't read Salvation Run so I don't know for sure, but probably not. You may want to read Seven Soldiers of Victory, because I'm sure it will be quite important to Final Crisis, particularly the Mister Miracle mini.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

ProjectX2 said:
I haven't read Salvation Run so I don't know for sure, but probably not. You may want to read Seven Soldiers of Victory, because I'm sure it will be quite important to Final Crisis, particularly the Mister Miracle mini.
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Cool. I was thinking about getting Seven Soldiers in trade anyway.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

bluebeast said:
Ok good. Plus, do you know if Salvation Run has anything to do with this?
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Not at all, really. The only thing that might have a slight impact (and even that's unlikely) is Martian Manhunter being in Salvation Run. I can spoil the whole thing for you, if you want.

Amanda Waller and the Suicide Squad capture a bunch of villains and send them to a planet occupied with all sorts of monsters, with the idea being that they can start their own society off where no innocents will get hurt. They break up into a Joker camp and a Lex Luthor camp. A bunch of D-list villains I'd never heard of died. Oh, and Monsieur Mallah, the gorilla with a French accent, dies too. The bad guys discover one of the villains has been Martian Manhunter undercover and they lock him in a fire cage. Then they find out the reason they got sent to the planet was so they wouldn't be around when Darkseid took over the Earth, or because Amanda Waller really wanted them to die, or something. I don't really recall - it wasn't much of a twist. So they have to escape.
 
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