Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

[Ninja4peace]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I had no idea who Anthro was or his significance. I knew Kamandi and his story so i knew who he was. So that's how I got confused. So I read the synopsis and I was like, OHHHHHH! He was teleported! It ****ing makes a little more sense now.

You shouldn't have to read internet synopsis to understand something, though. I wonder if we hadn't been told that we're work it out from the second issue.

It's all about DC, I feel like I want a lantern as my avatar..maybe I'll get a pink one.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

You shouldn't have to read internet synopsis to understand something, though. I wonder if we hadn't been told that we're work it out from the second issue.

I'm guessing so. There's nothing in issue 1 to tell you he was teleported, so I'm guessing you're supposed to wonder what happened and you'll find out later.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

But the point is, you don't need to know who Kamandi is, or that Anthro was teleported or whatever, what happened to Anthro (who you also don't need to know anything about) is a mystery that will be resolved as the series progresses. Morrison's interview adds a little more depth to it, but you don't need to know any of that stuff during Final Crisis 1.

Well it really doesn't matter whether or not you need to know who these guys are. All I'm saying is that it could be a little confusing to new readers. That's all I'm saying. I'm not complaining about not knowing who these guys are. I don't even really care because I did some research and now I know. All I'm saying is that for new readers, it could feel a little confusing. I'm sure it will be developed in later issues, but that doesn't mean I can't be confused about what's going on. Not every reader out there is Joe Kalicki with years of DC knowledge on their belt so, back to the original point, I could see why some people would feel Final Crisis would be a little harder to follow compared to Secret Invasion.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not complaining about plot or further character development. I write and I understand the importances and intricacies of furthering the plot and only giving tidbits of information in the first issue. BUT, it does require some prior knowledge with characters if you wanna try to make sense of it all within the first issue and I think that's where some of the complaints are coming from. Who's Turpin, or Kamandi or Anthro or Metron? Things like that. And if you read the series in whole as a stand alone(as opposed to also reading Kirby's fourth world or GM's Seven Soldiers), I'm sure you wouldn't need any prior knowledge.

I'm the type that has to know about all the characters I'm reading about. So I go to wikipedia or read the bio's DC has laid out so I can learn a little more about each character and why they were chosen and what makes them so important in the series. Some people won't go through that trouble and they complain instead of finding out more for themselves. For new readers, I'm sure this is the very case. Then again this probably isn't the book for new readers. I'd recommend GL: Rebirth or Booster Gold.

You shouldn't have to read internet synopsis to understand something, though. I wonder if we hadn't been told that we're work it out from the second issue.

It's all about DC, I feel like I want a lantern as my avatar..maybe I'll get a pink one.

Well maybe not. I don't mind reading the synopsis. I like reading so it isn't a big deal and I have nothing to do but surf anyway. But some people do need to read. I'm sure you and Joe are the long time reader of DC, correct? Or it might not be a problem for you or maybe you guys just understand panel construction better than I do. I got caught up in the story and, like most panels with no dialogue in them, I tend to glance and look right past them so maybe I just missed some important stuff and didn't realize until I read the synopsis. But honestly, you tend to learn alot more noce you read about the characters. It's makes the story at hand more personal and it kinda keeps you tied to the story until the next issue comes out.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

But "confusing to new readers" and "intentionally mysetrious to every reader" are two totally separate things.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

But "confusing to new readers" and "intentionally mysetrious to every reader" are two totally separate things.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean people won't complain. It's different for every individual whether intentional or otherwise.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Well it really doesn't matter whether or not you need to know who these guys are. All I'm saying is that it could be a little confusing to new readers. That's all I'm saying. I'm not complaining about not knowing who these guys are.

Only if readers have unreasonable expectations. i.e. they expect to be given every single detail about a character.

Not every reader out there is Joe Kalicki with years of DC knowledge on their belt so, back to the original point, I could see why some people would feel Final Crisis would be a little harder to follow compared to Secret Invasion.

See, I've got to disagree. Secret Invasion boils down to "Aliens are invading Earth. There's a bunch of superheroes. Which one's a bad guy?" The premise is obvious, and has a very simple formula, but the characters are explained even less. We're assaulted with a dramatically larger cast of characters and just have to assume, "Oh. There's more superheroes". Case in point, Clint Barton and his ex-girlfriend (who I can't remember the name of). Who the **** are they, and why should we care about their secret abortion?

BUT, it does require some prior knowledge with characters if you wanna try to make sense of it all within the first issue and I think that's where some of the complaints are coming from.

I disagree. If you actually read the issue, I think it explains itself wel.

Who's Turpin,

A retired cop with a surly misdemeanor who's investigating a rash of child kidnappings.

or Kamandi

A mysterious vision of an indeterminate future, perhaps an omen of the world these dangerous dark gods are trying to create.

or Anthro

A young caveman who was given the gift of fire by a god-like being called Metron.

or Metron?

A godlike being who seems interested in the development of man, and seems to be MIA now, if the recovery of his chair is any indication.

See? That's not so hard.

I'm the type that has to know about all the characters I'm reading about. So I go to wikipedia or read the bio's DC has laid out so I can learn a little more about each character and why they were chosen and what makes them so important in the series. Some people won't go through that trouble and they complain instead of finding out more for themselves. For new readers, I'm sure this is the very case. Then again this probably isn't the book for new readers. I'd recommend GL: Rebirth or Booster Gold.

See, I think it's the opposite. If you need to know every detail of every character, than you can jump on Wiki. If you don't need to know every detail of every character, then the book provides you with all the details of the characters you need to know.

I got caught up in the story and, like most panels with no dialogue in them, I tend to glance and look right past them so maybe I just missed some important stuff and didn't realize until I read the synopsis. But honestly, you tend to learn alot more noce you read about the characters. It's makes the story at hand more personal and it kinda keeps you tied to the story until the next issue comes out.

You can't go into a Grant Morrison book expecting to look at it. You have to go in expecting to read it, maybe three or four times. I think books like Secret Invasion have gotten us used to skimming over popcorn action scenes and snatching up blatantly stated shocking twists, and leaving it at that.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Only if readers have unreasonable expectations. i.e. they expect to be given every single detail about a character.

That is almost always the case too, but I think new readers should be given leeway for this. They don't know any better, let alone what to expect.



See, I've got to disagree. Secret Invasion boils down to "Aliens are invading Earth. There's a bunch of superheroes. Which one's a bad guy?" The premise is obvious, and has a very simple formula, but the characters are explained even less. We're assaulted with a dramatically larger cast of characters and just have to assume, "Oh. There's more superheroes". Case in point, Clint Barton and his ex-girlfriend (who I can't remember the name of). Who the **** are they, and why should we care about their secret abortion?[/quote]

:lol:
To be honest, I haven't read Secret Invasion. I think having a description of the characters help as in why or how they're going to be implemented into the story, even if we don't know where it's going. That's just me personally. I really don't need the comic to spell that out for me, but I know alot of readers do. Not everyone thinks like us at the UC. I like to play guessing games with what's going to happen next, even if I'm wrong. It's just fun.

I disagree. If you actually read the issue, I think it explains itself wel.

i kinda already explained this, but I said that I tend to skim through sometimes so that was admittedly my fault. I can't pace myself well when I read.

A retired cop with a surly misdemeanor who's investigating a rash of child kidnappings.



A mysterious vision of an indeterminate future, perhaps an omen of the world these dangerous dark gods are trying to create.



A young caveman who was given the gift of fire by a god-like being called Metron.



A godlike being who seems interested in the development of man, and seems to be MIA now, if the recovery of his chair is any indication.

See? That's not so hard.

And those questions were rhetorical. I should have probably stated that.

See, I think it's the opposite. If you need to know every detail of every character, than you can jump on Wiki. If you don't need to know every detail of every character, then the book provides you with all the details of the characters you need to know.

And I said that I tend to do the first. Regardless, with any story, I'm sure new readers (supposing they give the series a chance) will get to know the characters well enough to actually read past stories once it's all over. I fell in love with renee during 52, so I'm really looking forward to how she develops in this story and the role she'll be playing.

You can't go into a Grant Morrison book expecting to look at it. You have to go in expecting to read it, maybe three or four times. I think books like Secret Invasion have gotten us used to skimming over popcorn action scenes and snatching up blatantly stated shocking twists, and leaving it at that.

you know my worst fear is getting into another huge crossover story like Civil War and it being reduced to nothing but a summer blockbuster. BUT, I've read Crisis 85, Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis and I love them all because they're so deep rooted into the universe. SO I have hope for this series. Also, Grant Morrison doesn't hurt either.:roll: and i agree with your GM statement and I failed to recognize that fact when I first read it.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

That is almost always the case too, but I think new readers should be given leeway for this. They don't know any better, let alone what to expect.

You only have this expectation in comic books though, and it confounds me.

:lol:
To be honest, I haven't read Secret Invasion. I think having a description of the characters help as in why or how they're going to be implemented into the story, even if we don't know where it's going. That's just me personally. I really don't need the comic to spell that out for me, but I know alot of readers do. Not everyone thinks like us at the UC. I like to play guessing games with what's going to happen next, even if I'm wrong. It's just fun.

Again, I think that's a specific quirk of hardcore comic book fans, and we can't fault the writing for not detailing every last aspect of the character. The fact of the matter is, with every character, we're given enough to understand the role they fulfill in the story.

i kinda already explained this, but I said that I tend to skim through sometimes so that was admittedly my fault. I can't pace myself well when I read.

With comics, I have the same problem. Which is why, with good books, I usually forcefully slow down my pace, or go back and re-read.

And those questions were rhetorical. I should have probably stated that.

I figured. I just wanted to drive home the point that the fact is, we are told who these characters are. Context and outright dialog provide us with everything that needs to be known.

And I said that I tend to do the first. Regardless, with any story, I'm sure new readers (supposing they give the series a chance) will get to know the characters well enough to actually read past stories once it's all over. I fell in love with renee during 52, so I'm really looking forward to how she develops in this story and the role she'll be playing.

See, that's what good comic book stories should do. They shouldn't rely on past history of the characters, unless they manage to succinctly explain this history in an organic way, but they should offer an experience that's enriching to people who do understand the history, and motivate new readers to want to read the back-stories.

you know my worst fear is getting into another huge crossover story like Civil War and it being reduced to nothing but a summer blockbuster. BUT, I've read Crisis 85, Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis and I love them all because they're so deep rooted into the universe. SO I have hope for this series. Also, Grant Morrison doesn't hurt either.:roll: and i agree with your GM statement and I failed to recognize that fact when I first read it.

See, I felt like Infinite Crisis was a blockbuster, and that Identity Crisis was too densely enmeshed in established continuity. So far (and it's hard to tell, because we really are only one issue in) I think FC might hit a nice balance between the two.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

The fact of the matter is, with every character, we're given enough to understand the role they fulfill in the story.

Pretty much agreed with everything but this stood out most. I didn't think of it that way but it does make sense. I mean I have no idea who Turpin is, but with just one read through the comic, you can already get the jist of who he is. That's not to say the same doesn't go for everyone else in the story, but I already knew/had an idea of who they all were.

 

[Ninja4peace]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

You shouldn't have to read internet synopsis to understand something,

Sorry I didn't mean internet synopsis, sometimes they're useful, i meant Grant explaining in the interview that darkseid was falling back through time into the darkside club in mister Miracle, and also explaining the whole anthro inducing prophetic visions through the use of the metron symbol.

Then again this probably isn't the book for new readers. I'd recommend GL: Rebirth or Booster Gold.

Ha! - I think if it's morrison and Final Crisis, the complete story is the JLA run (which is pretty big), Seven Soldiers, 52 (which are 4 vols each) and maybe some batman - these are the only morrison comics in the DCU propoer - everything else he's done like animal man, doom patrol etc. is pretty unconnected.

And all of these are still pretty self contained storiess by themselves, and are easily accessible for new readers. I agree that this is only issue one and it'll make sense when it's completed, I feel real silly for thinking I'd need to read anything else to get ready for this, nothing else morrison has written is that continuity heavy - yes it's littered with references to older comics and it draws on all the right parts but you don't need to go back to find that libra comic to understand or appreciate final crisis.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

And all of these are still pretty self contained storiess by themselves, and are easily accessible for new readers. I agree that this is only issue one and it'll make sense when it's completed, I feel real silly for thinking I'd need to read anything else to get ready for this, nothing else morrison has written is that continuity heavy - yes it's littered with references to older comics and it draws on all the right parts but you don't need to go back to find that libra comic to understand or appreciate final crisis.

And even if you did, DC reprinted it last month along with FC, so it's easy to find.

I'm glad you're coming around!

 

[Grocer Man]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I just had a thought.

If this does draw on Twilight of the Superheroes, then what if we see a bunch of villain houses show up. Like Dr. Light and Mirror Master founding the House of Light (maybe with Giganta, as well.)

Of course, if that's the case, VVD's bound to find out, which could leads to a wacky sitcom plot to keep it from him.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I just had a thought.

If this does draw on Twilight of the Superheroes, then what if we see a bunch of villain houses show up. Like Dr. Light and Mirror Master founding the House of Light (maybe with Giganta, as well.)

Of course, if that's the case, VVD's bound to find out, which could leads to a wacky sitcom plot to keep it from him.

The solicit for September's issue reveals the surviving heroes and free humans have set up bulwarks in ten "Watchtowers" around the world.... Sounds somewhat similar to the "Houses" of Moore's Twilight.... and it makes me wonder if one of these Watchtowers might be housing the Flash Rogues.....

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

September's solicitation has me SO incredibly excited for what they are setting up here... This is essentially Rock of Ages if it happened IN continuity... The end of human free will, and the superhumans fighting against literal Gods, more powerful than ever before...

I almost want them to announce another 52 series, complete with a OYL, because this isn't going to wrap itself up cleanly. They are going to have to rebuild a world.

 

[Ice]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

September's cover looks really really awesome.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

September's solicitation has me SO incredibly excited for what they are setting up here... This is essentially Rock of Ages if it happened IN continuity... The end of human free will, and the superhumans fighting against literal Gods, more powerful than ever before...

I almost want them to announce another 52 series, complete with a OYL, because this isn't going to wrap itself up cleanly. They are going to have to rebuild a world.

You don't think the Metron time traveling element will somehow neatly tie the event up in a way that somehow averts the rise the rise of the dark gods?

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If it does do that, it won't do it in the way any of us are expecting.

But DC wouldn't let itself pull off a major event with no ramifications. It would be a bad move towards both the fans and for business. This needs ramifications if only so people buy the books in which those ramifications are explored. Just like all the people who have picked up Mighty Avengers during secret invasion, or what have you.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

If it does do that, it won't do it in the way any of us are expecting.

But DC wouldn't let itself pull off a major event with no ramifications. It would be a bad move towards both the fans and for business. This needs ramifications if only so people buy the books in which those ramifications are explored. Just like all the people who have picked up Mighty Avengers during secret invasion, or what have you.

I'm sure there will be. The heroes walk away with a greater understanding of the universe and the consequences of their actions. I wouldn't be surprised if the Big Seven DO become the new faces of gods, but just not in the way we're expecting. Maybe in the present day, Bruce Wayne is still Batman and Clark Kent is still Superman, but they get a glimpse of the future, and they see a world where their souls have ascended to godhood. Wouldn't surprise me.

But you're right. I think, no matter what the end is, it's going to be something no one would have guessed.

 

[moonmaster]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I read it and I was a little confused, but I'll have to give it a second read. (I was quite distracted the first time.)

I agree that people have to give the book time to tell its story and understand that it wasn't really Morrison's fault that DC ****ed up the continuity to a series he'd been writing since 2006.

One problem I had with the first issue was that it's mildly confusing nature took away from it's gravity. I've been under the impression for months that Final Crisis's plot was basically "a bunch of New Gods die and then Darkseid goes to Earth and gets up to all kinds of evil monkey business".

Strangefate's explanation of the situation - actually being that Darkseid and the New Gods are all dead and are all being reborn on Earth, which is effectively the new, Fifth World - suddenly makes the series seem much more important. This isn't just Darkseid being evil again.

That makes me far more excited for the rest of the series.

Agreed. He does have the greatest avatar in the history of avatars.

WRONG.​

Seriously, Da Vinci Code wasn't a bad book despite being a horrible movie.

The Da Vinci Code may be the dumbest book I've ever read.

And I'm going back to kindergarten here.

P.S. I don't know what kiss chase is, but I totally want to play it.

It's what Morrison and Millar do when they're alone together.

 

[ProjectX2]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Final Crisis #2. I have no idea what is happening. The Flash bit was the most interesting bit in the comic. The rest is just nuts.