Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

J. Agamemnon said:
Well I think that's why he's mad, because people are *****ing like there's no tomorrow and blaming him for it because FC isn't synching with Countdown.
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Exactly. Because comic book people don't want to read a good story. They want to masturbate to the continuity of their favorite characters.

That's part of why the industry is so ****ed up. Fans who cling to their franchises no matter how terrible they get; fans who will keep buying a bad book, knowing it's bad, just to be completionists; fans who will, for instance, buy Countdown all the way through, *****ing all the time about how bad it is, but continuing to buy it because "They want it complete" and then turning around and saying "Oh. I'm not going to buy another weekly to show DC how much they ****ed up last time!"

So.... in that interview... Is Grant Morrison suggesting that the heroes of the DCU are the seeds of the Fifth World gods? Because I always thought that was a good idea, but I got the impression that the Fifth World was just Kirby's gods reborn. That would explain Martian Manhunter's new role though.

P.S. I don't know what kiss chase is, but I totally want to play it.
 
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Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

And again, it's not a good story for those characters if it contradicts previous continuity. A good story isn't necessarily a good Batman story, you know.

Continuity in big super-hero universes is important and if you don't like continuity there are plenty of awesome standalone books you can enjoy. There are plenty of standalone titles about the characters that are out of conitnuity if you just want a Batman comic, for instance.

To dismiss continuity is wrong-headed. These simply are not the comic book for you, and it's selfish to declare that people who enjoy as they are are retarded or something.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

This entire book is rooted in continuity. To say that Morrison doesn't care about continuity is rediculous. He is following up on ideas he put forward in his early nineties JLA book.

It is Death of the New Gods and Countdown's fault for not paying attention to what was about to happen in Final Crisis.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Joe Kalicki said:
And again, it's not a good story for those characters if it contradicts previous continuity. A good story isn't necessarily a good Batman story, you know.
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If it says "Batman" on the cover, and it's a good story about Batman, then it's a good Batman story, even if it glosses over silly pieces of continuity.

Joe Kalicki said:
Continuity in big super-hero universes is important and if you don't like continuity there are plenty of awesome standalone books you can enjoy. There are plenty of standalone titles about the characters that are out of conitnuity if you just want a Batman comic, for instance.

To dismiss continuity is wrong-headed. These simply are not the comic book for you, and it's selfish to declare that people who enjoy as they are are retarded or something.
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I'm not saying people who follow continuity are retarded. I like continuity. My major draw to superhero comics, and my interest in writing them in addition to writing more general literary story stories is the puzzle aspect of it - the idea that you have this cloth of continuity, and finding a way to weave these pieces together into a way that's true to the character's history as well as being a good story in and of itself.

But so many comic book fans seem wholly interested in continuity, while considering the story itself as being negligible. I'd rather look forward at the continuity that's being created than looking backwards at the continuity that's being dodged.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Zombipanda said:
If it says "Batman" on the cover, and it's a good story about Batman, then it's a good Batman story, even if it glosses over silly pieces of continuity.



I'm not saying people who follow continuity are retarded. I like continuity. My major draw to superhero comics, and my interest in writing them in addition to writing more general literary story stories is the puzzle aspect of it - the idea that you have this cloth of continuity, and finding a way to weave these pieces together into a way that's true to the character's history as well as being a good story in and of itself.

But so many comic book fans seem wholly interested in continuity, while considering the story itself as being negligible. I'd rather look forward at the continuity that's being created than looking backwards at the continuity that's being dodged.
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And we agree, sidestepping continuity is fine. But openly contradicting continuity is never fine. If it needs to be done, either the story isn't right for that book, or the story needs to have a mechanism to explain the changes (sse: OMD).

People think FC openly contradicts Countdown (it doesn't), and other people are putting them down for being reasonably upset about this. That's a ridiculous view, people should be upset, especially since they just spent $150 on Countdown to Final Crisis only to find it is irrelevent.

I don't care, because weekly books are fun for me, even if they suck, plus as I said before, the big problem seems to be with how many times Orion has died and who saw it when, at the end of Countdown, Orion is still alive, so their complaints are based on a faulty pretense anyway.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Joe Kalicki said:
And we agree, sidestepping continuity is fine. But openly contradicting continuity is never fine. If it needs to be done, either the story isn't right for that book, or the story needs to have a mechanism to explain the changes (sse: OMD).

People think FC openly contradicts Countdown (it doesn't), and other people are putting them down for being reasonably upset about this. That's a ridiculous view, people should be upset, especially since they just spent $150 on Countdown to Final Crisis only to find it is irrelevent.

I don't care, because weekly books are fun for me, even if they suck, plus as I said before, the big problem seems to be with how many times Orion has died and who saw it when, at the end of Countdown, Orion is still alive, so their complaints are based on a faulty pretense anyway.
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See, my feeling on individual pieces of continuity is that they need to prove their worth to the comics universe. There's plenty of instances where editorial slips and allows garbage writers to tell garbage stories that put characters in places they don't need to be, places where the situation can only be fixed by increasingly silly stories that just further threaten the status of the character. Continuity should be judged on how well it stands up, how meaningful an impact it has on the character, the gravity with which it holds meaning in the long term.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Zombipanda said:
See, my feeling on individual pieces of continuity is that they need to prove their worth to the comics universe. There's plenty of instances where editorial slips and allows garbage writers to tell garbage stories that put characters in places they don't need to be, places where the situation can only be fixed by increasingly silly stories that just further threaten the status of the character. Continuity should be judged on how well it stands up, how meaningful an impact it has on the character, the gravity with which it holds meaning in the long term.
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But if it's a msitake to, say, have Alfred turn into a mudrer trying to kill Batman, a new writer/editor can't just come in and say "well, that never happened." If a story is terrible it should be written away, but it can't just be ignored. Alfred can't just show up the next month and have snappy banter with Bruce in the cave.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Joe Kalicki said:
But if it's a msitake to, say, have Alfred turn into a mudrer trying to kill Batman, a new writer/editor can't just come in and say "well, that never happened." If a story is terrible it should be written away, but it can't just be ignored. Alfred can't just show up the next month and have snappy banter with Bruce in the cave.
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Well, the difference is, with that kind of overwhelming change in a character, the editorial staff at DCU will already have plans for the book beyond the revelation of Alfred as a bad guy, so it's a moot point, really.

It's more like, the writer taking over has to concede to take Alfred off the board, but doesn't have to mention what happened to the character or why the character's gone. And then, further down the line, once the plot's had a chance to cool, maybe we can brush the whole storyline underneath the rug.

They should kill Alfred. Then he can show up as the butler for the Ghost-Dibnys.
 
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Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Death of The New Gods and Countdown contradicted each other before Final Crisis ever came out.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

J. Agamemnon said:
Exactly and the fact the editors knew where Final Crisis was going should put the blame even moreso on them and not Morrison.
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Entirely on them, even. Simultaneous continuity is entirely the job of the editorial staff.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Zombipanda said:
Well, the difference is, with that kind of overwhelming change in a character, the editorial staff at DCU will already have plans for the book beyond the revelation of Alfred as a bad guy, so it's a moot point, really.

It's more like, the writer taking over has to concede to take Alfred off the board, but doesn't have to mention what happened to the character or why the character's gone. And then, further down the line, once the plot's had a chance to cool, maybe we can brush the whole storyline underneath the rug.

They should kill Alfred. Then he can show up as the butler for the Ghost-Dibnys.
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Right, you just ignore it, but you can't just bring Alfred back without commenting on his murderous ways. Continuity isn't mentioning every story that came before every chance you get, it's just making sure a character gets to a point through a progression and not just wild erratic jumps for the sake of telling a story.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

As we'll learn, when we see Darkseid's 'Fall' from the world of the New Gods - as depicted in DCU #0 - he's falling backwards through time. In DCU #0 we're watching him fall back through the present, into the past of Seven Soldiers where he finally comes to rest in the body of 'Boss Dark Side', the gangster from that story.
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Ah...that makes sense.

reading this interview it seems Final Crisis is completely independent from countdown & Dotng - in fact he wanted the dead Orion to be the first dead new god we saw, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ignore everything that contradicts this, and pretend like I don't know why the new gods are dying again.
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Ninja4peace said:
Ah...that makes sense.

reading this interview it seems Final Crisis is completely independent from countdown & Dotng - in fact he wanted the dead Orion to be the first dead new god we saw, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ignore everything that contradicts this, and pretend like I don't know why the new gods are dying again.
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Me too. Just pretend Countdown and DTNG never happend. I would also like to pretend the $200 I wasted on those 2 titles was back in my wallet. :cry:
 
Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

mike3717 said:
Me too. Just pretend Countdown and DTNG never happend. I would also like to pretend the $200 I wasted on those 2 titles was back in my wallet. :cry:
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When you realized how garbage Countdown was, why didn't you stop buying it?
 
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