Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

That's it exactly! now I'm in a worse off position for reading Dotng. Way to treat you fans didio

Jesus Christ.

You're being stupid about it. If you thought it sucked you didn't have to buy it, regardless of the hype.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

that's what wikipedia is for, so you don't have to waste your money.

 

[Bass]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Jesus Christ.

You're being stupid about it. If you thought it sucked you didn't have to buy it, regardless of the hype.

I think the problem isn't so much that it sucked, but rather it's actually completely ignored by Final Crisis, which it's supposed to be a set-up to.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I think the problem isn't so much that it sucked, but rather it's actually completely ignored by Final Crisis, which it's supposed to be a set-up to.

It's just a tie in. It has as much to do with the main series as any other tie in. It's only ignored because it was written after, and it's not contradicted.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Right, you just ignore it, but you can't just bring Alfred back without commenting on his murderous ways. Continuity isn't mentioning every story that came before every chance you get, it's just making sure a character gets to a point through a progression and not just wild erratic jumps for the sake of telling a story.

hm..... I think the difference is in the nature of the continuity. It needs to be about the spirit of the continuity change more than the exact details of the event. If Alfred turns into a murderer, that retroactively changes Batman's history, and twists his whole mythology in a different way. The details of why Alfred did it are important to the oncoming stories because of how those details changed Batman's mythology.

With the New Gods, the point we need to draw away is that they're all dead. They fought a war in heaven, and now they're dead. Some details get fudged up, but ultimately aren't important to the mission statement of the continuity change, which is to kill off the old bodies of the New Gods and put them in new bodies on Earth.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

hm..... I think the difference is in the nature of the continuity. It needs to be about the spirit of the continuity change more than the exact details of the event. If Alfred turns into a murderer, that retroactively changes Batman's history, and twists his whole mythology in a different way. The details of why Alfred did it are important to the oncoming stories because of how those details changed Batman's mythology.

With the New Gods, the point we need to draw away is that they're all dead. They fought a war in heaven, and now they're dead. Some details get fudged up, but ultimately aren't important to the mission statement of the continuity change, which is to kill off the old bodies of the New Gods and put them in new bodies on Earth.

Right, well, as long as FC doesn't contradict it (which it hasn't yet and probably won't), it's safe to assume the War in Heaven is what was shown in Death of the New Gods/Countdown. I really don't se what the fuss is about.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Right, well, as long as FC doesn't contradict it (which it hasn't yet and probably won't), it's safe to assume the War in Heaven is what was shown in Death of the New Gods/Countdown. I really don't se what the fuss is about.

The events don't link up. There do seem to be errors as to the precise nature of how it went down.

But they're gods. I don't see why the actions of the gods can't be manifested in a dozen different contradictory ways and have them all be true.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

The events don't link up. There do seem to be errors as to the precise nature of how it went down.

But they're gods. I don't see why the actions of the gods can't be manifested in a dozen different contradictory ways and have them all be true.

I haven't read all of Death of the New Gods, but from what I saw in Countdown there's nothing in FC that contradicts that. Any continuity errors between DOTNG and Countdown are just mistakes, not intentional contradiction.

Same thing for any errors between Countdown and FC that might occur - just mistakes.

Honestly, this whole issue isn't really relevent to FC discussion.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I haven't read all of Death of the New Gods, but from what I saw in Countdown there's nothing in FC that contradicts that. Any continuity errors between DOTNG and Countdown are just mistakes, not intentional contradiction.

Same thing for any errors between Countdown and FC that might occur - just mistakes.

Honestly, this whole issue isn't really relevent to FC discussion.

Agreed.

So, there's a lot of talk about how Final Crisis is hard to comprehend for new readers, and less accessible than Secret Invasion, but I sat back down and tried to examine the book as a new reader, who's only knowledge if the basic understanding that there's a bunch of heroes who've been running around for years and fighting super-villains, and all of it seems perfectly comprehensible. The basic nature of all of the characters are explained within the dialog (without having to refer to intruding editorial captions. I hate editorial captions). There are questions, sure, but these are questions of story more than questions of "Who the hell is this guy?".

Are there any new readers who could jump in here and give their opinions? 'cuz I'm curious

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Agreed.

So, there's a lot of talk about how Final Crisis is hard to comprehend for new readers, and less accessible than Secret Invasion, but I sat back down and tried to examine the book as a new reader, who's only knowledge if the basic understanding that there's a bunch of heroes who've been running around for years and fighting super-villains, and all of it seems perfectly comprehensible. The basic nature of all of the characters are explained within the dialog (without having to refer to intruding editorial captions. I hate editorial captions). There are questions, sure, but these are questions of story more than questions of "Who the hell is this guy?".

Are there any new readers who could jump in here and give their opinions? 'cuz I'm curious

We had this same discussion on Jinxworld, so I reread Final Crisis and the only part I think might be slightly confusing for new readers is the scene with The Question, because there really is no explanation to who she is or why she's helping Turpin. A single caption would have fixed that, like Turpin saying "a super-hero called The Question asked to meet me," or something less lame.

(I like editorial captions)

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

We had this same discussion on Jinxworld, so I reread Final Crisis and the only part I think might be slightly confusing for new readers is the scene with The Question, because there really is no explanation to who she is or why she's helping Turpin. A single caption would have fixed that, like Turpin saying "a super-hero called The Question asked to meet me," or something less lame.

Well, presumably that will be answered further on in the story too. Either way, it seems pretty clear that she's some sort of masked detective, right?

(I like editorial captions)

My feeling is, if you can't summarize something through visualization or dialog, it's too complicated to be in your story, and it needs to be shaved away anyway.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Well, presumably that will be answered further on in the story too. Either way, it seems pretty clear that she's some sort of masked detective, right?

Yeah, except it doesn't look like she's masked the way Jones draws her, at least not in the first couple panels.

My feeling is, if you can't summarize something through visualization or dialog, it's too complicated to be in your story, and it needs to be shaved away anyway.

I don't know of any editorial captions that explain stuff on the page.

I like the boxes that refer back to previous issues. I want to know where interesting things happened when I read a character talking about them.

 

[mike3717]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

When you realized how garbage Countdown was, why didn't you stop buying it?

I guess I kept on thinking that something meaningful or important was going to happen that would make feel like it was all worth it by the end. But of course that never happend. I mean at first I didn't think 52 was that good but as the book got going it got better to where I looked forward to reading it each week.

I kept waiting for Countdown to get to that point. It just never did.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

Yeah, except it doesn't look like she's masked the way Jones draws her, at least not in the first couple panels.

That is actually my only big complaint about the first issue. She clearly isn't wearing her mask, and then she is. Hopefully it's fixed in the trade.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

i think the Anthro and Kamandi parts might be the only confusing things for new readers. Especially if they don't understand all the "!!!" going on instead of talking. and that last panel with anthro being fast-forwarded to the future was a little confusing. I didn't even realize what had happened until i read the synopsis on the internet.

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

i think the Anthro and Kamandi parts might be the only confusing things for new readers. Especially if they don't understand all the "!!!" going on instead of talking. and that last panel with anthro being fast-forwarded to the future was a little confusing. I didn't even realize what had happened until i read the synopsis on the internet.

I wasn't entirely sure either. I gathered that the sigil he was drawing was the same as the design on whassisname's face, and I recognized it was the Kamandi future. I get the feeling that this was intentionally confusing, and would be so whether you're brand new, or an established DC reader.

Even a new reader should be able to gather the same amount of depth of it from an established reader, with the ruins of the Statue of Liberty in the background.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

I have a feeling Anthro got teleported to Kamadi's world by drawing the signal of Metron. Why Kamadi knows what's going on confuses me.

Which is something that I realize is going to be explained.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

i think the Anthro and Kamandi parts might be the only confusing things for new readers. Especially if they don't understand all the "!!!" going on instead of talking. and that last panel with anthro being fast-forwarded to the future was a little confusing. I didn't even realize what had happened until i read the synopsis on the internet.

But that's supposed to be confusing for everyone, and will be explained later. Since when is having a mystery written off as just being confusing? Since everyone is so anti-DC for no reason, that's when.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

But that's supposed to be confusing for everyone, and will be explained later. Since when is having a mystery written off as just being confusing? Since everyone is so anti-DC for no reason, that's when.

It wasn't confusing because it was mysterious. It was confusing because I hadn't realized he was teleported. I had no idea who Anthro was or his significance. I knew Kamandi and his story so i knew who he was. So that's how I got confused. So I read the synopsis and I was like, OHHHHHH! He was teleported! It ****ing makes a little more sense now. I wonder what the weapon is. That's why it might be confusing. I don't think I've been anti-DC either. If anything I've dropped all my marvel title until I got my giant size astonishing xmen. For now, It's all about DC.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Re: Final Crisis (SPOILERS!)

It wasn't confusing because it was mysterious. It was confusing because I hadn't realized he was teleported. I had no idea who Anthro was or his significance. I knew Kamandi and his story so i knew who he was. So that's how I got confused. So I read the synopsis and I was like, OHHHHHH! He was teleported! It ****ing makes a little more sense now. I wonder what the weapon is. That's why it might be confusing. I don't think I've been anti-DC either. If anything I've dropped all my marvel title until I got my giant size astonishing xmen. For now, It's all about DC.

But the point is, you don't need to know who Kamandi is, or that Anthro was teleported or whatever, what happened to Anthro (who you also don't need to know anything about) is a mystery that will be resolved as the series progresses. Morrison's interview adds a little more depth to it, but you don't need to know any of that stuff during Final Crisis 1.