Final Crisis series discussion [spoilers]

[Ice]

And people wonder why comics aren't selling that well. It's because of **** like this. It's completely unreadable.

I have to completely disagree. I, who knows almost next-to-nothing about the DCU, have not once been lost at all while reading Final Crisis. I have not read #7 yet, I don't pick it up until tomorrow, but I have enjoyed the hell out of every issue, and #4 is still my favorite. Of course I have asked questions about things I don't know about, but that hasn't hindered the enjoyment for me.


I've been seeing lots of people not like Final Crisis, and I find it funny and kind of ironic that the ones I've seen say they haven't liked it have been people who are heavy into/know about the DCU, where as for me, is the completely opposite. Heh. :lol:

 

[Random]

So I read a summary and really what the ****? Usually I can follow along with a series just through spoilers and summaries. No matter how obscure the characters or external plot lines I can still pick up enough to understand. But this last issue made no ****ing sense! I followed right until the time jumping then it made no sense. Seriously I could not follow a single bit.

 

[Doc Comic]

It was still better than Secret Invasion.

(Commence ****storm here.)

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I was confused as hell on the first read. Intrigued on the second, and loved it on the third go.

I don't like the confusion regarding how Wonder Woman came out of the Anti-Life scenario, or the fact that we don't have real clues as to how Batman is alive (i thought maybe they put his corpse in that rocket, but they launch it, and superman is still carrying it)... And while its irritating that they put too much important stuff in Batman: Last Rites and Superman Beyond... Once you put it all together, I really love it.

I think Batman RIP was better on the whole, but now that I see the whole Picture of Final Crisis, I think morrison mostly succeeded. Even in the sense that the character moments were few and far between... That's simply because this ISNT the story of characters. This is the story of Universes.

 

[Doc Comic]

I was confused as hell on the first read. Intrigued on the second, and loved it on the third go.

I don't like the confusion regarding how Wonder Woman came out of the Anti-Life scenario, or the fact that we don't have real clues as to how Batman is alive (i thought maybe they put his corpse in that rocket, but they launch it, and superman is still carrying it)... And while its irritating that they put too much important stuff in Batman: Last Rites and Superman Beyond... Once you put it all together, I really love it.

I think Batman RIP was better on the whole, but now that I see the whole Picture of Final Crisis, I think morrison mostly succeeded. Even in the sense that the character moments were few and far between... That's simply because this ISNT the story of characters. This is the story of Universes.

Apparently, what Darkseid hit Batman with wasn't the Omega Beams, but the Omega Sanction.

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/message.jspa?messageID=2005082368

Meaning he's being sent through different universes and different crappy lives. This goes along with what Morrison said right at the start, that Batman is going to be given "a fate worse than death," and that Bruce wouldn't be dead but that he definitely would be out of commission for awhile.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Mandrakk was the Evil Monitor (I completely forgot about him), but Superman Beyond made less sense to me than Final Crisis, so I have no effin' clue why he became so scary and bad.

I really wanted this series to be mostly about a super-magical Libra's war on the heroes, and ever since it went to the Darkseid-Earth I've been bored with it. Also, they pretty much completely dropped Libra altogether after the second issue.

 

[Zombipanda]

So, scratch everything I said. That last issue was pretty much a steaming pile of ****. And the art is just bad all the way through.

Edit: Okay, maybe that was a little harsh. I appreciate the story itself and how he went about trying to tell a different kind of story. It's just the finale didn't lead to the build-up for me. Gnostic philosophies are incredibly intriguing, and I found his treatment of the evil New Gods to be exceptional, but the final threat kind of fell flat, for me.

Still...

Every time I read about the agonizing pains of 'event fatigue' or how '3-D hurts my head...' or how something's 'incomprehensible' when most people are 'comprehending' it just fine, it's like visiting a nursing home. 'Events' in superhero comic books FATIGUE you? I'm speechless. Admittedly they do tend to be a little more exciting than the instruction leaflets that come with angina pills but... 'fatigue'?

That's great. And the one thing I like about the dude is that he makes me want to write mainstream comic books, which is something I rarely feel the desire for. But he just leaves so many juicy concepts dangling there to be snatched up.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Mandrakk was the Evil Monitor (I completely forgot about him), but Superman Beyond made less sense to me than Final Crisis, so I have no effin' clue why he became so scary and bad.

Really? I didn't have any problem following Superman Beyond.

 

[Zombipanda]

Really? I didn't have any problem following Superman Beyond.

I don't think there's anything to really know about the character.

The conflict is about stories falling apart. The vampire dude isn't a character. He's nothingness, the desire of absence to destroy creation.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

SPOKE TO SOON!

Even Bendis wasn't stupid enough to introduce major characters in the final issue. Part of me wonders just what kind of bull**** writing school someone can go to where they decide to open the last chapter of the story with a 6-page introduction sequence for brand-new characters we've never heard of?

School? This is making me wonder if they even attended.

 

[Bass]

I have to completely disagree. I, who knows almost next-to-nothing about the DCU, have not once been lost at all while reading Final Crisis. I have not read #7 yet, I don't pick it up until tomorrow, but I have enjoyed the hell out of every issue, and #4 is still my favorite. Of course I have asked questions about things I don't know about, but that hasn't hindered the enjoyment for me.


I've been seeing lots of people not like Final Crisis, and I find it funny and kind of ironic that the ones I've seen say they haven't liked it have been people who are heavy into/know about the DCU, where as for me, is the completely opposite. Heh. :lol:

#1-5 make sense and are quite interesting and cool when read back-to-back. #6 is rather anti-climactic and lackluster. #7 is totally incomprehensible.

Apparently, what Darkseid hit Batman with wasn't the Omega Beams, but the Omega Sanction.

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/message.jspa?messageID=2005082368

Meaning he's being sent through different universes and different crappy lives. This goes along with what Morrison said right at the start, that Batman is going to be given "a fate worse than death," and that Bruce wouldn't be dead but that he definitely would be out of commission for awhile.

I assumed this was the case, in the MISTER MIRACLE mini, Darkseid hits him with the Omega Sanction and he's forced to live all these different lives and, being the escape artist he is, he escapes. I assumed that was the same for Batman.

That's great. And the one thing I like about the dude is that he makes me want to write mainstream comic books, which is something I rarely feel the desire for. But he just leaves so many juicy concepts dangling there to be snatched up.

No, it's not great. Instead of trying to understand what fanboys say is 'fatigue', he just dismisses it. The fans get fatigued, tired, and exhausted of the events because they are over-hyped, with little meaningful payoff, last ages, and consume much time and money. The readers aren't fatigued in so much as that they are bored. Fatigue just happens to be a particularly evocative word for that level of boredom. Tired of caring.

 

[mike3717]

I finally read it last night. I liked it. A lot. Granted it took a couple readings, plus I had the benefit of reading reviews and such prior to reading it so it wasn't as confusing as it could have been coming in cold.

I thought it was great that Superman, once again, is the lynchpin. I liked how it had elements of All Star Superman in it. I sort of liked that it was Superman who "wished" that everything would be fine. ("he is Superman..." I love that line) As a Superman fan this story was great. And we all knew that Batman wasn't dead or going to stay dead for long. No surprise there.

The one thing I really wish was that DC gave GM more issues to work with. He had to cram so much into 7 issues that we get a lot of stuff happening off page. It really should have been 12 issues.

But all in all I don't think it was as confusing as people are complaining it is.

Also, in terms of impact to the DCU, I don't see where this is a 'status quo' changer. I do think we got the old Aquaman back tho. (it was only 1 panel...gotta go look again)

 

[Ice]

#1-5 make sense and are quite interesting and cool when read back-to-back. #6 is rather anti-climactic and lackluster. #7 is totally incomprehensible.

I found #6 to be very enjoyable and I think is my 2nd favorite issue of the mini.

#7 I will read sometime today, so we'll see what happens with that...

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I finally read it last night. I liked it. A lot. Granted it took a couple readings, plus I had the benefit of reading reviews and such prior to reading it so it wasn't as confusing as it could have been coming in cold.

I thought it was great that Superman, once again, is the lynchpin. I liked how it had elements of All Star Superman in it. I sort of liked that it was Superman who "wished" that everything would be fine. ("he is Superman..." I love that line) As a Superman fan this story was great. And we all knew that Batman wasn't dead or going to stay dead for long. No surprise there.

The one thing I really wish was that DC gave GM more issues to work with. He had to cram so much into 7 issues that we get a lot of stuff happening off page. It really should have been 12 issues.

But all in all I don't think it was as confusing as people are complaining it is.

Also, in terms of impact to the DCU, I don't see where this is a 'status quo' changer. I do think we got the old Aquaman back tho. (it was only 1 panel...gotta go look again)

The Aquaman thing was probably my biggest problem with the issue, because its such a major thing delegated to a single panel. Should have been given a page.

The Status Quo changer is the fact that Apokalips is gone. The Evil New Gods are gone. The Monitors are gone. The Multiverse is free to exist without any meddling, any guiding hands. Furthermore, and more importantly, EVERYONE knows there is a Multiverse now. Hell, it was on the Radio in that last scene in modern times. Barry Allen is back. Aquaman is (apparently) back. Batman is stuck in time... It's not a worldchanger in the shallow sense that a lot of the Marvel stuff tends to be... Where you see the short term changes in a major ways, but its all rewritten by the next major miniseries. To bring back the Monitors, to make the people of all these earths forget there is a Multiverse, to bring back Darkseid, to bring back Batman... Those are all MAJOR stories, which will have long lasting implications on all the characters involved, the first two of which will probably never happen.

It didn't change things in the way people expected, and the real purpose of the series (ridding the multiverse of The Monitors), is a little shrouded until the final issue.

I agree absolutely about not understanding why people have such trouble with it. I think Ice is the perfect example of this being a concise entertaining story.

 

[Doc Comic]

The Aquaman thing was probably my biggest problem with the issue, because its such a major thing delegated to a single panel. Should have been given a page.

The Status Quo changer is the fact that Apokalips is gone. The Evil New Gods are gone. The Monitors are gone. The Multiverse is free to exist without any meddling, any guiding hands. Furthermore, and more importantly, EVERYONE knows there is a Multiverse now. Hell, it was on the Radio in that last scene in modern times. Barry Allen is back. Aquaman is (apparently) back. Batman is stuck in time... It's not a worldchanger in the shallow sense that a lot of the Marvel stuff tends to be... Where you see the short term changes in a major ways, but its all rewritten by the next major miniseries. To bring back the Monitors, to make the people of all these earths forget there is a Multiverse, to bring back Darkseid, to bring back Batman... Those are all MAJOR stories, which will have long lasting implications on all the characters involved, the first two of which will probably never happen.

It didn't change things in the way people expected, and the real purpose of the series (ridding the multiverse of The Monitors), is a little shrouded until the final issue.

I agree absolutely about not understanding why people have such trouble with it. I think Ice is the perfect example of this being a concise entertaining story.

You summed it up perfectly. A lot of people say, "Well, Final Crisis didn't change anything at all." But you outlined it all well.

Whether people realized it or not, the New Gods were major players in the DCU. Darkseid, of course, was perhaps the most major of them all. All of them are GONE. One of DC's most terrifying villains is gone (or, at the very least, not making appearances for a long while).

And then the Multiverse, people give a meh because it was introduced in 52. But we've barely seen any of the Multiverse since then. We've seen hints, sure, but over half of the 52 Earths are still unseen or even unmentioned. With everybody being aware of the Multiverse now, I'm hoping to see some great stories. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm a suckerfor parallel universe stories.

 

[Zombipanda]

The Aquaman thing was probably my biggest problem with the issue, because its such a major thing delegated to a single panel. Should have been given a page.

The Status Quo changer is the fact that Apokalips is gone. The Evil New Gods are gone. The Monitors are gone. The Multiverse is free to exist without any meddling, any guiding hands. Furthermore, and more importantly, EVERYONE knows there is a Multiverse now. Hell, it was on the Radio in that last scene in modern times. Barry Allen is back. Aquaman is (apparently) back. Batman is stuck in time... It's not a worldchanger in the shallow sense that a lot of the Marvel stuff tends to be... Where you see the short term changes in a major ways, but its all rewritten by the next major miniseries. To bring back the Monitors, to make the people of all these earths forget there is a Multiverse, to bring back Darkseid, to bring back Batman... Those are all MAJOR stories, which will have long lasting implications on all the characters involved, the first two of which will probably never happen.

It didn't change things in the way people expected, and the real purpose of the series (ridding the multiverse of The Monitors), is a little shrouded until the final issue.

I agree absolutely about not understanding why people have such trouble with it. I think Ice is the perfect example of this being a concise entertaining story.

Right, right, right. You're one of my favorite people around here, Doc.

At first I was unhappy with how the ending positioned things, but the implications are growing on me. All your points are valid, but I think there's a bigger cosmological framework. The basic universal pattern for god cycles in mythology is that the newer race of gods murders and usurps the old order. In this case, humanity collectively wrote Darkseid out of existence as they collectively recreated the multiverse. But what's really cool about it is the Bruce Wayne twist. Apparently he's hopping infinitely through time, scrawling the symbols of the trinity and Metron's sigil wherever and whenever he goes. Essentially, he's willing a new mythological order into being by making the legend of the modern superheroes spread from the beginning of time to the end of it. By sending Batman into a fate worse than death, Darkseid sealed the rise of the Fifth World, which now retroactively spans the breadth of history. That's cool. It's mythic. And while it probably won't have many (if any) direct impact on the stories themselves, it does create a cool framework for the universe.

I still have my beefs with the story. Issues five and seven still fall flat for me, and I have a list of issues, but all-in-all, I dug it.

 

[mike3717]

The Aquaman thing was probably my biggest problem with the issue, because its such a major thing delegated to a single panel. Should have been given a page.

Yeah, maybe. But I like how Morrison left it very open ended for whoever the writer of the "new" Aquaman will be. If he writes too much then he influences what the next writer has to do, or ignore. (Like he had to do with Countdown)

The Status Quo changer is the fact that Apokalips is gone. The Evil New Gods are gone. The Monitors are gone. The Multiverse is free to exist without any meddling, any guiding hands.

Yeah but really the only thing about any of that that has a noticeable impact is no more Darkseid (for now). The meddling of the monitors is somewhat overblown since it only gets touched on during company wide crisis'.

However the whole "knowledge of other universes" thing is very interesting and I am looking forward to the story and crossover possibilities of other earths. I always did tho.

Barry Allen is back.

And I can't wait for Rebirth. Between that and BN, DC is going to be so much better than Marvel this year.

 

[thee great one]

I was highly lost and confused.

I plan on reading Final Crisis 1-7, Superman Beyond 1-2, Batman 682-683, and the Resist/Submit issues in the order they are meant too.

Than it might be a little more comprehensible.

I blame it on the force rewrites and stuff.

The Beyond issues and Final Crisis 6-7 are really the ones I had trouble following.

I did love the ending with Batman.


And I read the final Revelations issue. Pure awesome, the ending made me smile.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Morrison says there weren't any rewrites. I'm tired of people using that to excuse poor storytelling.

 

[thee great one]

Oh?

I thought I read it somewhere that there were. I could be wrong.


It might just be bad storytelling than. I still haven't made final judgement.