Wizard announces Jeph Loeb and Joe Madureira on Ultimates 3

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Bass said:
Huh? How do you know Mad hasn't done all the research into the Japanese visual language that you cite and had his style be developed that way?

You seem more against non-Japanese doing what you consider to be Japanese art, than the actual merit of the art itself.

Mad's art is very cartoony, but not very Manga-like. Mad has the ENERGY of a Manga comic, but not the artistic style and renderings. His worlds are drawn in a far more realisitcally exaggerated fashion like classic superheroes. He's not "Anime-inspiried" but rather an effective blend of both Anime/Manga AND classic Neal Adams style superheroes. This is why he isn't a copy - he is distinctive. But because we are so used to the classic exaggerated superhero we only notice the bizarre Manga influence, but his work successfully combines the two without copying either.
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Nah.

The japanese have a culture of visual language, it cannot be easily emulated by reading a few comics.

Yeah he's manga inspired and cartoony, it's lazy and cheap.
 
Guijllons said:
Nah.

The japanese have a culture of visual language, it cannot be easily emulated by reading a few comics.

Yeah he's manga inspired and cartoony, it's lazy and cheap.
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Its lazy and cheap? Because you don't like it? Mad's style is distincitve from Manga. His characters are more exaggerated, and if you take a piece of manga and compare it with Mad's there are differences.

And at the end of the day, if the popular belief was that Mad's art was cheap and lazy, I'm sure he wouldn't have a job at Marvel Comics.
 
GMaster said:
Its lazy and cheap? Because you don't like it? Mad's style is distincitve from Manga. His characters are more exaggerated, and if you take a piece of manga and compare it with Mad's there are differences.

And at the end of the day, if the popular belief was that Mad's art was cheap and lazy, I'm sure he wouldn't have a job at Marvel Comics.
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Nah. It's not lazy and cheap because I don't like it.
 
Fuzzy Birds said:
I admit it sucked bad.

But recently I was looking over some old Uncanny X Men issues, and I really did like the stuff. Very stylised. If ou just avoid the overly garish, bright 90's colouring it should be alright.
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I got those. I don't like the art of em.
 
Guijllons said:
Nah.

The japanese have a culture of visual language, it cannot be easily emulated by reading a few comics.
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My point is, how do you know he only got what he knows about manga from reading a few comics? He has said he often spends a lot of time freeze framing manga films to study the movements. Is it not possible that he also studied the visual language as well?

You seem not to like him because you consider him a cheap and lazy copy of the Japanese culture, but my point is, you don't know if he's cheap and lazy or if he's a proper student.

In my opinion, he draws with incredible skill and refinement. The style you think he copies, that of the Japanese-inspired Westerner is something he pioneered. He didn't copy Japanese art, but blended it with the Western art focusing on a realisitic exaggeration of motion.

I still want to hate him though.
 
i don't like the artist. i think the style doesn't go well with the Ultimates.

as for loeb.... i'm not sure. i've liked some of his stuff, hated others. the main reason i like millar on this is because he knows where he wants to take the ultimates because he knows where he wants to take the ultimate universe as a whole
 
After reading the article a few days ago I changed my opinion:

1. I actually liked Madureira's sketches. I was apprehensive originally because all the art of his that I was seeing looked crappy, but I think his Ultimates sketches look much better. I'm definitely giving him a chance.

2. ...I'm also gonna give Loeb a chance. I've hated some of his stuff (I don't care what anyone says, Hush was a crappy vehicle for Jim Lee's art) but actually liked some of his other stuff (I thought The Long Halloween was pretty good. Not the best Batman story and in some ways a little unremarkable but not bad) so I'll just have to wait and see.

I'll decide whether they're gonna work when I get the issue.

*waits to be beaten up by Guij and Bass*
 
moonmaster said:
After reading the article a few days ago I changed my opinion:

1. I actually liked Madureira's sketches. I was apprehensive originally because all the art of his that I was seeing looked crappy, but I think his Ultimates sketches look much better. I'm definitely giving him a chance.

2. ...I'm also gonna give Loeb a chance. I've hated some of his stuff (I don't care what anyone says, Hush was a crappy vehicle for Jim Lee's art) but actually liked some of his other stuff (I thought The Long Halloween was pretty good. Not the best Batman story and in some ways a little unremarkable but not bad) so I'll just have to wait and see.

I'll decide whether they're gonna work when I get the issue.

*waits to be beaten up by Guij and Bass*
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I'm with you on this. Hush was a crappy vehicle.

Still, I will definately give them a chance.
 
thee great one said:
More superhero action and less poltical espoinage. And more classic costumes. Basiclly the Avengers.
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Not exactly classic costumes. Just tweaked a bit. Still Ultimate.

It's still going to be the Ultimates.
 
If it were to go to Ultimate Avengers, I would hope it would become an on-going series without scheduling conflicts. That is the whole reason why the Ultimates are split into volumes, correct?
 
Thought this would be interesting to post:


Joe Fridays #19 excerpt said:
NRAMA: From "Rocket Boy":


"When speaking on the topic of your rather daring choice for the new Ultimates creative team [editor's note: Jeph Loeb and Joe Madureira, for the record] you said you felt it would be pointless to attempt to emulate what Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch did. What, in your mind, sets The Ultimates apart in this regard from the other Ultimate ongoing titles such as X-Men and Fantastic Four whose creative team changes have essentially maintained the status quo for those titles?

JQ: Could we actually say that? To me the art of Greg Land is so different from Adam Kubert as is Stuart Immonen from Andy [Kubert]. But that said, The Ultimates has been so hugely defined by the work of Millar and Hitch that I think anyone who is stylistically close will be in for some incredibly unfair comparisons. When Ultimates Vol. 3 hits, you won't be able to compare what Mad is doing to what Hitchy has done because it'll be like comparing DaVinci to Picasso, both genius but so different. So, my feeling in this case is that Jeph and Joe will immediately make The Ultimates their own from the minute they hit the ground.
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Having skimmed 15+ pages of discussion on this, I have a question for the experts here: Can someone please post a list of, say, a dozen titles that Jeph Loeb has written? I'd prefer things published as trades, but will look for singles as well.

Choose works that show him as a good writer, a poor writer, whatever you want. Up to this point, the only thing I've read by him was Superman for All Seasons, which I found I liked. However, that's a very small representative sample, so I'm looking for more of his work before forming any kind of opinion.

Thanks! Now back to our regularly-scheduled debates.... :)
 
Here's what I know...

Batman "Hush" (one of my favorites)
Batman "The Long Halloween
Superman/Batman "Public Enemies"
Superman/Batman "The Supergirl From Krypton" (one of my favorite stories)
Superman/Batman "Abosulte Power"
Superman/Batman "With A Venegage" (Still Writing)
Hulk Grey
Spider-Man Blue
 
Seldes Katne said:
Having skimmed 15+ pages of discussion on this, I have a question for the experts here: Can someone please post a list of, say, a dozen titles that Jeph Loeb has written? I'd prefer things published as trades, but will look for singles as well.

Choose works that show him as a good writer, a poor writer, whatever you want. Up to this point, the only thing I've read by him was Superman for All Seasons, which I found I liked. However, that's a very small representative sample, so I'm looking for more of his work before forming any kind of opinion.

Thanks! Now back to our regularly-scheduled debates.... :)
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Basically, Superman For All Seasons is the same nostalgic pap he always writes.

Hush is a good example of terrible writing, in that Lee returns to comics, and can draw women, so Loeb writes a story where Lee gets to draw all of Batman's villains, especially Catwoman. The story is a horrific pretzeling of disconnected events that are "connected" because Batman says so. And a major clue is revealed in the penultimate issue without a set up. It's pathetic and completely inconsequential.

The Long Hallowe'en was okay, and so was Dark Victory, so you can read those and I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Daredevil: Yellow, Spider-Man: Blue, and Hulk: Gray are the exact same story repeated three times. The hero tells us of pointless escapades that happened in between better stories in flashbacks.

Superman/Batman is unreadable.

The main reason is because, well, stories are meant to be ABOUT something. Meant to have meaning. Loeb knows this. Loeb also points out that the meaning of his Superman/Batman arcs were, (paraphrasing) "The first arc was about how Superman and Batman see each other. The second was about how the superhero community sees Superman and Batman. The third was about how the world sees Superman and Batman."

That's not meaning.

It's a comic about fictional characters and nothing more. It appeals to fanboy nostalgia while being shallow and completely pointless. The same is true for The Killing Joke, which is just about how Batman and Joker are similar, though it does touch on the absurdity of life, it doesn't have a point or meaning.

Hush was about Batman's villains. The Long Hallowe'en was about Holiday. Superman For All Seasons was about Superman.

Pointless, shallow, nostalgic pap. Go read something worthwhile, like the Ultimates.

Or hey, read Loeb. He's extremely popular, a leading writer in the industry, financially successful, and people love his work, including other professionals.

So maybe I'm just horrendously wrong, or other people like the nostalgia.

If you like it, then I suppose that's what matters.
 
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Ultimates 3....

With possibily jeph loeb writing the new series for the ultimates, what do you think the transition will be like for him -- going from the famed 'hush' series to a whole different concept in the Ultimates?

I think its going to rock!!!
 
Re: Ultimates 3....

Welcome 8)

I think it will be good but not as good as Miller's.

Mad Joe's art looks good.

My only worry is that they'll make it to much like classic Avengers.
 
Thank you for the recommended reading, gentlemen. I've requested four of the books off TGO's list which are available through my library system, and will keep a look out for any of the others mentioned. Just from the summaries I've seen, it appears that Loeb likes to reinterpret things that have already happened with characters, which I don't think will work well in Ultimates, given that we've only had four arcs. :wink:

But we'll see....
 
Seldes Katne said:
Thank you for the recommended reading, gentlemen. I've requested four of the books off TGO's list which are available through my library system, and will keep a look out for any of the others mentioned. Just from the summaries I've seen, it appears that Loeb likes to reinterpret things that have already happened with characters, which I don't think will work well in Ultimates, given that we've only had four arcs. :wink:

But we'll see....
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But he likes colors. And colors are pretty.

(If anyone gets that joke, I will give you a fun hug)

Don't know if you read HULK: GRAY, but the reason that was done was because Marvel wanted to tell the origin again before he was green or something. Can't remember the exact reason. So they picked Loeb to write it.
 
Bass said:
Hush is a good example of terrible writing, in that Lee returns to comics, and can draw women, so Loeb writes a story where Lee gets to draw all of Batman's villains, especially Catwoman. The story is a horrific pretzeling of disconnected events that are "connected" because Batman says so. And a major clue is revealed in the penultimate issue without a set up. It's pathetic and completely inconsequential.
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That's exactly the impression I got from what people have been saying about Hush.

It's what I call the superhero private crossover, in which one hero gets to fight his entire rogue's gallery and team-up with his contacts. The plot's chief mastermind villain usually makes sense, but is also so intentionally unexpected it feels contrived.

The effect makes you feel like you've been gang-raped. Not that I know what being gang-raped feels like. See also Mark Millar's run on Marvel Knights Spider-Man.
 
ourchair said:
It's what I call the superhero private crossover, in which one hero gets to fight his entire rogue's gallery and team-up with his contacts. The plot's chief mastermind villain usually makes sense, but is also so intentionally unexpected it feels contrived.
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Haven't read Bruce Jones' run on the Hulk yet, but apparently, it's got a very similar structure to what you've just described.
.
 
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ourchair said:
That's exactly the impression I got from what people have been saying about Hush.

It's what I call the superhero private crossover, in which one hero gets to fight his entire rogue's gallery and team-up with his contacts. The plot's chief mastermind villain usually makes sense, but is also so intentionally unexpected it feels contrived.

The effect makes you feel like you've been gang-raped. Not that I know what being gang-raped feels like. See also Mark Millar's run on Marvel Knights Spider-Man.
Click to expand...

Good observation. I hadn't linked the two in my head, but you're spot on here.
 

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